First form review

[HyzerRoc]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Grab closer to your navel (swing thru center)

One question: with this cue, are you talking about navel high when standing next to the doorframe (measured it out and grabbed about there in the video) or navel high when dropping into the door frame? Im guessing it's the second as you keep nudging me to grab lower.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hand height looked fine to me, standing upright somewhere between navel to sternum.

I think you went the opposite direction on side bend one and rear foot too far south. Relax/drop into the drill/transition so your left side bends a little and right shoulder will go slightly higher than left. Make sure your head doesn't move toward your toes/west teeside. You should drop slightly east toward heels, so your head stays upright.




The second vid looked much better especially around 20sec. Make sure your rear knee is not locked straight, should have slight bend still.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

One question: with this cue, are you talking about navel high when standing next to the doorframe (measured it out and grabbed about there in the video) or navel high when dropping into the door frame? Im guessing it's the second as you keep nudging me to grab lower.

I'd refer to his cue for the other big pieces for now. I still tend to find messing with the hand a bit in the sternum/navel range after that useful, but he's right to guide you there. You also have longer levers so you theoretically might have a larger range of highly effective arm slots overall. Need to get the whole rest of posture into place to maximize dem levers.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Hand height looked fine to me, standing upright somewhere between navel to sternum.

I think you went the opposite direction on side bend one and rear foot too far south. Relax/drop into the drill/transition so your left side bends a little and right shoulder will go slightly higher than left. Make sure your head doesn't move toward your toes/west teeside. You should drop slightly east toward heels, so your head stays upright.

View attachment 339007


The second vid looked much better especially around 20sec. Make sure your rear knee is not locked straight, should have slight bend still.

Thanks for the pointers. The yellow line in the pic makes it really clear how much further your rear foot is away from the door frame. For you its past the elbow and for me it is slightly in front of it.

I think I'm inclined to almost lock it because it gives me a bit more movement. There is one muscle in the back of my thigh of the left leg that gets stretched really well in this drill that also seems to be really tight which makes moving the left leg further away from the doorframe difficult. Hard to say which one though, I just looked through pictures of thigh muscles and there is just way too many of them I will see how much more I can manage in my stance and report back with some more video. I'm also gonna take up some more stretching to be able to move a bit more freely.

I'd refer to his cue for the other big pieces for now. I still tend to find messing with the hand a bit in the sternum/navel range after that useful, but he's right to guide you there. You also have longer levers so you theoretically might have a larger range of highly effective arm slots overall. Need to get the whole rest of posture into place to maximize dem levers.

Im gonna try both - with the hand a bit lower and as high as I got it for now. Wont hurt to try both versions and see what difference it makes. Thanks!

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks for the pointers. The yellow line in the pic makes it really clear how much further your rear foot is away from the door frame. For you its past the elbow and for me it is slightly in front of it.

I think I'm inclined to almost lock it because it gives me a bit more movement. There is one muscle in the back of my thigh of the left leg that gets stretched really well in this drill that also seems to be really tight which makes moving the left leg further away from the doorframe difficult. Hard to say which one though, I just looked through pictures of thigh muscles and there is just way too many of them I will see how much more I can manage in my stance and report back with some more video. I'm also gonna take up some more stretching to be able to move a bit more freely.


Im gonna try both - with the hand a bit lower and as high as I got it for now. Wont hurt to try both versions and see what difference it makes. Thanks!

Just on the rear leg - I think I used to have the locking/near locking effect and it started to go away when I fixed the side bend!

 

[HyzerRoc]

I put some more time into the door frame drill, thank you both for keeping me on this drill. Im still learning new moves through it.

you should drop slightly east toward heels, so your head stays upright.

This cue coupled with the hint of more sidebend by Brychanus helped me to get the movement of the left leg. Dropping my head towards my heel changes the ground pressure slightly towards more pressure of the heel of the plant leg and it lets me bend my left leg more, taking my hip a bit further away from the doorframe. I generally much more freedom of movement in the drill this way and it is also easier to get a bit lower. I included both views here because the frontal view helped me to see how my hips move in relation to the doorframe.






Doing the drill likes this also changed how it feels to let go of the doorframe. Previously when letting go the momentum would take me upwards in the follow-through. When letting go now much more of the momentum goes into my arm. It feels heavy and much more like a punch.



This video now makes much more sense to me. When throwing I can also feel the tip of the whip much better. Recently I had a practice day where everything in my form just fell into place and I could pretty much focus on the hand and where I want to whip it to control my shots.

Think you can still:

Grab closer to your navel (swing thru center)

I tried grabbing it a little lower here and see how much I could push it. With the different rear hip movement I described above I have more freedom of movement to go lower. To me it feels like I can actually get more leverage in this lower position and when letting go the arm hammers out with more force. However Im not sure I could replicate that in an actual throw. Pushing this drill however helps to get more comfortable with more extreme moves so I think this was a good exercise. Im also breaking the wall with my knee on this position a bit

What do you notice in my drill? Am I good for a form check or would you prefer me sticking this out a bit longer?

 

[Brychanus]

EDIT: I stand corrected, see Sidewinder's next post.

I think you have opposite side bend.

When you reach back to grab the frame do it more like the golfer does in his drill video. Exaggerate it so you're more like eagle at first while staying "inside" your posture. I tend to stand much taller than this now because it causes me to rotate faster more easily, but I had to learn it with the big exaggeration at first and repeat it for a couple weeks.

I think your legs tend to move in the opposite direction of Eagle's in part due to lack of side bend. You might also want your rear foot toes more aligned with front foot heel again to feel the coil into the rear hip.* So do golfer guy drill like that. Super fussy to find at first.

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Also maybe kind of a weird comment - but you have really long feet. My guess is you might end up moving more like Eagle to maximize your levers even if you're not as freakishly flexible as him.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I think you have opposite side bend.

Ha, I've found a new way to do this stuff wrong

Thank you for the pictures, those definitely help.

In the pictures I notice that Eagles and the golfers rear hip is above their front hip. I have trouble reconciling this with the cue sidewinder gave me earlier. Ever since that one I tried to let the rear hip drop in the drill when the door frame pulls me taut while I bounce off of my plant leg. Can you help me reconcile those two?

Note how my front hip is being pulled up as I drop the rear hip down underneath me and shift/leverage the pelvis forward so it's pulling the frontside back taut and spine hangs relaxed/flexed/bowed from door frame.

View attachment 327312

You might also want your rear foot toes more aligned with front foot heel again to feel the coil into the rear hip.* So do golfer guy drill like that. Super fussy to find at first.

I could feel the coil into my rear hip already and also played some with consciously using that coil into my rear hip when throwing. Im gonna try and see how that feels differently with a different rear hip position.

About the feet: good catch, I have size 11 which is about the largest size stores still carry. Moving like Eagle sounds like music to my ears although my inflexibility is one of my biggest problems right now. Im gonna keep your suggestion here in mind.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think you have opposite side bend.

Ha, I've found a new way to do this stuff wrong

You are doing the drill correctly. You should come out of right side bend and go into left side bend transitioning forward. The right side gets stretched out in the drill while the left side compresses. The only weird thing you do, is your left arm/elbow are going upward when you let go and swing instead of dropping forward.

In the pictures I notice that Eagles and the golfers rear hip is above their front hip. I have trouble reconciling this with the cue sidewinder gave me earlier. Ever since that one I tried to let the rear hip drop in the drill when the door frame pulls me taut while I bounce off of my plant leg. Can you help me reconcile those two?

The door frame will pull the front hip up as you drop the left hip forward.

About the feet: good catch, I have size 11 which is about the largest size stores still carry.

I also wear size 11 shoes and I'm 5'7".

 

[HyzerRoc]

You are doing the drill correctly. You should come out of right side bend and go into left side bend transitioning forward. The right side gets stretched out in the drill while the left side compresses. The only weird thing you do, is your left arm/elbow are going upward when you let go and swing instead of dropping forward.


The door frame will pull the front hip up as you drop the left hip forward.

I also wear size 11 shoes and I'm 5'7".

Now that you point it out that does look weird. I seem to pull my left arm up a little before swinging and ending upward. Nice observation, thanks!

Guess huge feet really help with swimming as there is a larger surface that can push against the water. I also got huge hands and have only met a handful of people with larger ones even though I used to play basketball.

 

[Brychanus]

You are doing the drill correctly. You should come out of right side bend and go into left side bend transitioning forward. The right side gets stretched out in the drill while the left side compresses. The only weird thing you do, is your left arm/elbow are going upward when you let go and swing instead of dropping forward.


The door frame will pull the front hip up as you drop the left hip forward.

I also wear size 11 shoes and I'm 5'7".

Thanks for the correction. I see it in the sequence now whereas my point would have applied earlier in the sequence, I think. Sorry @HyzerRoc.

I was not quite sure how to address what looks uncomfortable in his posture to me; I'm curious if he changes the arm and elbow now.

 

[Brychanus]

In the pictures I notice that Eagles and the golfers rear hip is above their front hip. I have trouble reconciling this with the cue sidewinder gave me earlier. Ever since that one I tried to let the rear hip drop in the drill when the door frame pulls me taut while I bounce off of my plant leg. Can you help me reconcile those two?

Hopefully this is clearer after Sidewinder's correction, but also wanted to mention it since it just helped me get more sensitive to the rear arm part and understand why I gave erroneous side bend advice in the context of the drill.

The door frame drills happen at the moment in the sequence just before the weight shifts right off the rear foot instep and onto the front foot. So basically the "shift underneath" is almost entirely complete in the posture you use in the door frame drill (and then is complete as soon as you let go of the frame and land in the plant). That's why you see Sidewinder in the posture he's in. I think that's consistent with his correction.

I was just doing the drill again to figure out why your rear arm might like to do that. You've heard all this but I'll emphasize with a visual from Gibson. You want everything on the rear side to feel like it is coming in to assist the shift/increase moment of inertia when you plant. This is like that little elbow move Sidewinder shares in his One leg Drill. Watch Gibson's rear elbow assisting the shift onto his front leg. The lower arm should want to swim through naturally as part of it.

Watching this angle helps. See and emulate the action just as he's coming off the rear foot instep (even though his feet are cut off you can probably perceive the moment). Visualize how everything on the rear side is assisting the front side. This is the same posture sidewinder is using in this image. Doing exactly this move alongside door frame drill helped me feel the difference between what you are doing with the rear arm vs. Gibson/sidewinder/my standstill. When I do this move it's the "same" as the door frame drill posture, but the door frame provides much clearer feedback about the "inside swing" from a posture perspective.

When I do either Gibson's move or "drop off the frame," it feels like the entire rear side of the move functions like he describes here. The rear arm should be assisting the rear side into it - don't spill the beverage works in this context, etc.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Thanks for the correction. I see it in the sequence now whereas my point would have applied earlier in the sequence, I think. Sorry @HyzerRoc.

Your other post still gave me a lot to think about how my hips are supposed to move. I just went through the windmill drill in front of a mirror and could feel, what would be the rear hip in a discgolf swing, wind up with pressure the same as in a doorframe drill.

Maybe a little off-topic but I got a golf club and I'm gonna try the side bend he demonstrates in a golf swing as that is much more exaggerated and try to connect it to my throw. There is a bunch of stuff that is much easier to notice in a golf swing like the way your rear side gets stretched when bringing down the club. Something that I can also feel in the doorframe drill but much less so.

The door frame drills happen at the moment in the sequence just before the weight shifts right off the rear foot instep and onto the front foot. So basically the "shift underneath" is almost entirely complete in the posture you use in the door frame drill (and then is complete as soon as you let go of the frame and land in the plant). That's why you see Sidewinder in the posture he's in. I think that's consistent with his correction.


When I do either Gibson's move or "drop off the frame," it feels like the entire rear side of the move functions like he describes here. The rear arm should be assisting the rear side into it - don't spill the beverage works in this context, etc.

I have started to notice differences in feel between my rear and front side through the doorframe drill. Something I have only seen you and other people on here write about and it seemed a bit ridiculous to me. Getting that feeling consistently and into a throw is gonna take a lot more work on my side.

When I go through the movements you showed in the Gibson gif and the one sidewinder demonstrates in the one leg drill I can feel the difference the arm movement makes. When I just let it fall in a swing there is a slight delay before my right shoulder wants to start swinging up. There is a rhythm to it. When I just swing my left arm through like I did in the doorframe drill, there is no delay or rhythm to it. It feels good but I can see how that yields less power. Also when I force it to go down I lose the rhythm and power as well. Thank your laying this all out for me, appreciate it!

And I swear if I ever get the shift underneath right thats gonna be like a jackpot. I have kept on eye on that in reviewing my videos of throws and without fail I would just come over the top at some point.

Im gonna work some more on the doorframe drill and see how the way my rear arm moves affects it and get back to you with some video.

 

[sidewinder22]

Swing drills with golf club...

 

[Brychanus]

Your other post still gave me a lot to think about how my hips are supposed to move. I just went through the windmill drill in front of a mirror and could feel, what would be the rear hip in a discgolf swing, wind up with pressure the same as in a doorframe drill.

Maybe a little off-topic but I got a golf club and I'm gonna try the side bend he demonstrates in a golf swing as that is much more exaggerated and try to connect it to my throw. There is a bunch of stuff that is much easier to notice in a golf swing like the way your rear side gets stretched when bringing down the club. Something that I can also feel in the doorframe drill but much less so.



I have started to notice differences in feel between my rear and front side through the doorframe drill. Something I have only seen you and other people on here write about and it seemed a bit ridiculous to me. Getting that feeling consistently and into a throw is gonna take a lot more work on my side.

When I go through the movements you showed in the Gibson gif and the one sidewinder demonstrates in the one leg drill I can feel the difference the arm movement makes. When I just let it fall in a swing there is a slight delay before my right shoulder wants to start swinging up. There is a rhythm to it. When I just swing my left arm through like I did in the doorframe drill, there is no delay or rhythm to it. It feels good but I can see how that yields less power. Also when I force it to go down I lose the rhythm and power as well. Thank your laying this all out for me, appreciate it!

And I swear if I ever get the shift underneath right thats gonna be like a jackpot. I have kept on eye on that in reviewing my videos of throws and without fail I would just come over the top at some point.

Im gonna work some more on the doorframe drill and see how the way my rear arm moves affects it and get back to you with some video.

Right now I spend time going back to videos of pros breaking down their own form and then compare it to SW's drills, then try to copy the pro movement examples. Just like the recent DFD discussion here there are ever more subtle things you can get into, but they're really all just part of one consistent big move. I liked that Gibson video in particular because he demonstrates maybe a few dozen little moves emphasizing one thing or another, which when compared directly against SW's drills reveal an impressive "hit rate" on the basic mechanics. Then copying the pro movement gets incrementally easier for me, etc. I just think Sidewinder has studied weight shift mechanics more thoroughly than anyone else, so it's not a surprise to me when it takes time to figure it out. I also start as a skeptic for everything but dude does his homework!


Swing drills- all of those are money. I also learn a lot switching back and forth between two and one handed swings -two handed tends to make postural framing easier for me including the role of the rear arm, then taking it one handed makes the move "long" like you want in your form. I think a lot of people struggle making the move as long as possible and clubs really can help with that.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Swing drills with golf club...

I gotta try that one now that I got a club. I fiddled around with the move you show at 2:08 during field practice today and it gives a good feeling for the pivot point as it is so exaggerated by the weight and length of the club.

Swing drills- all of those are money. I also learn a lot switching back and forth between two and one handed swings -two handed tends to make postural framing easier for me including the role of the rear arm, then taking it one handed makes the move "long" like you want in your form. I think a lot of people struggle making the move as long as possible and clubs really can help with that.

After starting to use double dragon for warm ups I got a new appreciation for perpetual drills. I will often try something out in a dingle arm drill at home to see what it changes about the feeling of the arm. You will probably see some video of the double dragon drill here once im happy with how it looks and cant find more to scrutinise myself.

Coincidentally I had some kind of revelation about the long feeling of a swing you mentioned here: in field practice today I warmed up with double dragon, then progressed distance from putter standstills focusing on accuracy to mids with slow x-step to fairways then to drivers. On the shots I wanted to throw the furthest I initially tried putting more effort or more speed into them to see what difference that would make in the shots. Then I remembered the cue from the drouble dragon vid of making the move longer like in a long toss drill. So I went back to double dragon trying to do it perpetually with momentum, but also stretching the time between planting and letting the arm swing through. Then I tried using that as a cue for long shots and I could feel myself planting, with my arm following through distinctly after that. For the session that gave me the easiest distance but also pulled my shots into a bit more anhyzer/pulled them flatter. Not all of them, but some. Distance was good but not the greatest with about 400 feet with distance drivers but they felt really good. After getting that sensation in 2 sets of full power shots I went back to cool down with some slow x-steps and standstills. I used the same sensation of making the move long, planting first, then coming through. The shots were much more consistent as I hit my line better than the shots I used to warm up.

Also no pain in the inside of my right knee and only some tiredness in the rotator cuff of my right shoulder even though I threw a lot of shots today. Also no tiredness in the gluteus medius.