Tech disc test driven development

[disc-golf-neil]

Thats a really cool observation but do the three other fingers beside the index finger matter that much for power on the disc when the index finger is the pivot point? Extension gets more nose down as it pushes the back of the disc up but it feels weird as hell.

Tech disc records the path of the disc, does the path it rips out change between the two grips?

The nose down difference here is much more a function of how consistent I am at turning the key during a set of throws.

I retested this but with max power and this time the curled (DIP joint flexion) was more nose down (-3.4 vs -1.5), but it was just because I focused a bit more on turning the key to make sure I wasn't accidentally not doing it as much as usual due to having my attention distracted by the different finger grip feel.

My speed was 3 mph less on average with DIP joint flexion than DIP joint extension. Many of the DIP joint flexion throws felt, effort wise, like the ones I JUST threw minutes before, but were multiple MPH slower. Not sure why, I doubt it's a grip strength issue even though DIP flexion isn't my usual style I have climbing strength with both styles (I can do pull ups with DIP flexion or extension on finger tips only on a flat edge for example).

I'll post the stats and video when I get around to editing.

Tech disc doesn't track the X axis release angle.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Also @HyzerRoc , I haven't seen it demonstrated clearly enough how to switch between nose down or nose up (video showing the manipulation clearly) with this technique you described for me to test it with the tech disc. I suspect the more meaningful change that is happening is actually disc alignment across the palm which results from the finger action you described but can also simple be aligned directly without the fingers doing the manipulation and then closing the fingers around that alignment to set it in place.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

 

[HyzerRoc]

I just noticed that your flexion power grip looks way different from mine. Is it because of rim-size in relation to hand-size? I got pretty big hands but also feel uncomfortable gripping anything bigger than 11 speeds, might be because of the way I use the power grip. When I go into extension from here the alignment in my palm also changes significantly. I could see how this is not as much as with your version of a flexion power grip.



I tried extension as well, but it feels really damn weird to me. I did some climbing/bouldering but I used mostly what you described as an open palm or a half crimp so I might just lack the muscles. In extension the forearm becomes really stiff as my forearm muscles engage for that kind of grip while they stay loose for a flexsion grip.

No idea though why your difference in speed is so siginificant between the grips. Maybe the disc pivots differently around your index finger. Have you thrown in a field using both grips and noticed a difference in trajectory?

 

[BenjiHeywood]

I just noticed that your flexion power grip looks way different from mine. Is it because of rim-size in relation to hand-size? I got pretty big hands but also feel uncomfortable gripping anything bigger than 11 speeds, might be because of the way I use the power grip. When I go into extension from here the alignment in my palm also changes significantly. I could see how this is not as much as with your version of a flexion power grip.

View attachment 339640

I tried extension as well, but it feels really damn weird to me. I did some climbing/bouldering but I used mostly what you described as an open palm or a half crimp so I might just lack the muscles. In extension the forearm becomes really stiff as my forearm muscles engage for that kind of grip while they stay loose for a flexsion grip.

No idea though why your difference in speed is so siginificant between the grips. Maybe the disc pivots differently around your index finger. Have you thrown in a field using both grips and noticed a difference in trajectory?

Ah, that was the kind of grip i was talking about way back up the thread.

It seems to me that that would be an incredibly strong grip, even with very little thumb pressure, because the disc isn't trying to slide out of your grip upwards, towards the thumb, like it would in extension; it's ripping directly against the finger ends which are in a strong position.

Is that how it feels when you throw it?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I just noticed that your flexion power grip looks way different from mine. Is it because of rim-size in relation to hand-size? I got pretty big hands but also feel uncomfortable gripping anything bigger than 11 speeds, might be because of the way I use the power grip. When I go into extension from here the alignment in my palm also changes significantly. I could see how this is not as much as with your version of a flexion power grip.

View attachment 339640

I tried extension as well, but it feels really damn weird to me. I did some climbing/bouldering but I used mostly what you described as an open palm or a half crimp so I might just lack the muscles. In extension the forearm becomes really stiff as my forearm muscles engage for that kind of grip while they stay loose for a flexsion grip.

No idea though why your difference in speed is so siginificant between the grips. Maybe the disc pivots differently around your index finger. Have you thrown in a field using both grips and noticed a difference in trajectory?

Two things are different with your flexion. 1. You simply use a lot more flexion, I don't curl as far as possible because it starts to make out the pressure more directly into the bones of your finger tips. Nick krush literary injured his finger bone from this by gripping so hard since he throws 85mph. Also this seems to reduce surface area contact if you maximize using just the tips of the fingers instead of more of the finger pad which is already another diff between flexion and extension but is accentuated with even more flexion I think.

With flexion forces can actually peel open the fingers, but with extension, my fingers peeling open are not the failing point because the knuckles are locked in and so the failing point becomes friction but I also have more finger pad surface area contact for more friction with extension. In practice, I'm not sure if the disc ejects from flexion more from friction slip or fingers peeling open first though.

This is how the crimps work in climbing too, you literally hear people do a 1 handed clap when they are full or closed crimping and slip unexpectedly because the fingers don't get peeled open, they slip from friction and are still closing and slap the palm.

2. Your disc alignment is closer to F1P-3 where the disc is to the left of the boney protrusion on the bottom left of your palm which encourages more finger curl when I do that grip as well because the disc is getting closer to being perpendicular to your fingers.

 

[HyzerRoc]

You just made me realise why some people put their thumb on the flight plate. Mine just rests on the rim not knowing what to do. Only thing my thumb does is prevent the discs from fluttering but otherwise I could probably get away with not using my thumb at all.

With that grip the left side of the disc (in a rhbh) is also much lower than with the one Neil showed.

I can feel it rip out against the pad of my index finger or against the pad of my middle finger when my weight shift and intended trajectory are not in line. For example when I throw a steep hyzer trajectory without getting my weight over my toes, the disc noticeably rips out against the pad of my middle finger which results in a hyzer trajectory but a flat disc.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Two things are different with your flexion. 1. You simply use a lot more flexion, I don't curl as far as possible because it starts to make out the pressure more directly into the bones of your finger tips. Nick krush literary injured his finger bone from this by gripping so hard since he throws 85mph. Also this seems to reduce surface area contact if you maximize using just the tips of the fingers instead of more of the finger pad which is already another diff between flexion and extension but is accentuated with even more flexion I think.

With flexion forces can actually peel open the fingers, but with extension, my fingers peeling open are not the failing point because the knuckles are locked in and so the failing point becomes friction but I also have more finger pad surface area contact for more friction with extension. In practice, I'm not sure if the disc ejects from flexion more from friction slip or fingers peeling open first though.

This is how the crimps work in climbing too, you literally hear people do a 1 handed clap when they are full or closed crimping and slip unexpectedly because the fingers don't get peeled open, they slip from friction and are still closing and slap the palm.

2. Your disc alignment is closer to F1P-3 where the disc is to the left of the boney protrusion on the bottom left of your palm which encourages more finger curl when I do that grip as well because the disc is getting closer to being perpendicular to your fingers.

That sounds pretty scary. I have managed to damage my finger nails before but nothing more serious than that. Maybe I got my noodle arm to thank for that.

When you do a crimp/throw with extension, does that injur the finger point over time? A friend of mine who climbs pretty well told me older climbers usually lose their grip strength due to overuse and the crimp position seems like it puts a lot of stress on the joint.

 

[Sheep]

You just made me realise why some people put their thumb on the flight plate. Mine just rests on the rim not knowing what to do. Only thing my thumb does is prevent the discs from fluttering but otherwise I could probably get away with not using my thumb at all.

With that grip the left side of the disc (in a rhbh) is also much lower than with the one Neil showed.

I can feel it rip out against the pad of my index finger or against the pad of my middle finger when my weight shift and intended trajectory are not in line. For example when I throw a steep hyzer trajectory without getting my weight over my toes, the disc noticeably rips out against the pad of my middle finger which results in a hyzer trajectory but a flat disc.

Thumb is one of the ways we control the tension of the disc snapping from our fingers.

A lot of rounders have their thumb way to the outside because it helps them get the disc out earlier, despite having not much power on it.

It's honestly best to just put it in a comfortable spot that allows you to have good control of the disc so you can manipulate it easily.


It's neat to see all the data neil is trying to get.
Not sure ... what use it is. but. it still is neat. makes me think about things from years ago.

The thing to remember is its basically his data journey. So the data is skewed by his form and how he throws. So what works for him will most likely not work for a majority of other people out there.
But it still is interesting.

Brings up ideas anyways.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

That sounds pretty scary. I have managed to damage my finger nails before but nothing more serious than that. Maybe I got my noodle arm to thank for that.

When you do a crimp/throw with extension, does that injur the finger point over time? A friend of mine who climbs pretty well told me older climbers usually lose their grip strength due to overuse and the crimp position seems like it puts a lot of stress on the joint.

Actually, I think your finger curl is not that much more flexion in the dip joint but is more flexion in the other joints to create more overall curl.

I tried the finger curl on a course and was hitting my lines and it looked to be flying well, but I'm usually not going for absolute max power so I have more control and don't knee or expect my max distance so it would be interesting to do a test in the field and average the distances. But it's hard with so many more variables, like more spin is going to be less flip if I'm on the same speed and hyzer so it won't go as far if I don't get as much turn.

It's recommended in Climbing to default to open hand and half crimp and to use full enclosed crimp more sparingly because it's more strenuous on the knuckles and certain tendons. However, with conditioning like everything, your fingers adapt, your knuckles get stronger, and the bone density increases. Open hand is sometimes required based on the hold and overall position so you have to be strong with it so that's another reason it's recommended, but also full crimping strength gains don't transfer very well to open hand strength, but increasing hand strength, transfers, more to full, and closed crimp.

And your last comment about the thumb position, I said it before, but your grip alignment (disc resting more towards the pinky side of the palm instead of the center) should result in the thumb being in front of the index finger and so thumb pressure feels kind of weird because there's no index finger underneath it to create a pinch point and support the pressure. I can literally slightly taco the disc in that kind of grip with thumb pressure and the palm pressure on the top of the rim.

 

[BenjiHeywood]

You just made me realise why some people put their thumb on the flight plate. Mine just rests on the rim not knowing what to do. Only thing my thumb does is prevent the discs from fluttering but otherwise I could probably get away with not using my thumb at all.

With that grip the left side of the disc (in a rhbh) is also much lower than with the one Neil showed.

I can feel it rip out against the pad of my index finger or against the pad of my middle finger when my weight shift and intended trajectory are not in line. For example when I throw a steep hyzer trajectory without getting my weight over my toes, the disc noticeably rips out against the pad of my middle finger which results in a hyzer trajectory but a flat disc.

Because you don't need thumb pressure, I used to actually get people to experiment with this grip for catching fast-flying discs in ultimate, because you don't need to correctly time the closing of the hand (or in this case, the timing of pressing with the thumb) as you would in other catching styles. You just make the shape, the thumb acting as no more than a guide for the incoming disc, and the fingers catch the disc automatically. It's like catching a disc with a carabiner.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@HyzerRoc alex honnolds hands have become super thicc

 

[HyzerRoc]

Because you don't need thumb pressure, I used to actually get people to experiment with this grip for catching fast-flying discs in ultimate, because you don't need to correctly time the closing of the hand (or in this case, the timing of pressing with the thumb) as you would in other catching styles. You just make the shape, the thumb acting as no more than a guide for the incoming disc, and the fingers catch the disc automatically. It's like catching a disc with a carabiner.

Never thought about there being technique to catching, so thats really cool.

About the Honnold pic: is that just tendon mass in his fingers he has built up for climbing?
As I understand it he mainly does what might be called endurance climbing (guess you need endurance when you dont take a rope). Wouldnt people who mainly do bouldering have even thicker fingers as they need more peak strength for tough boulder problems?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Never thought about there being technique to catching, so thats really cool.

About the Honnold pic: is that just tendon mass in his fingers he has built up for climbing?
As I understand it he mainly does what might be called endurance climbing (guess you need endurance when you dont take a rope). Wouldnt people who mainly do bouldering have even thicker fingers as they need more peak strength for tough boulder problems?

He can boulder like v12 or v13 which is pro level. He has done a like insanely tall v10 boulder with tiny crimps.. lol. When you see the closeup of the foot and handholds it's like "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?", lol.

It's so interesting to see here at close to limit climbing how common full and closed crimping is and how rare open hand is unless it's an easy hold or forced like at 1:42 he has to initially grab it open hand because of the reach and the fingers don't really go into the full crimp position easily without being loaded.





It's all connective tissue plus bone density increase too.

He also trains on the hand board so even if he does lots of easy endurance he then supplements it with harder hanging exercises.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Comparing my max putt speed and spin between two different styles (putting with tech disc driver):

Bonus points if you guess the pro player that AI based the thumbnail off of, lol.

 

[Sewer bill]

Why you putt so slow?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Why you putt so slow?

There's a challenge for you and seabass next time you crack open a cold one with the boys

It would be interesting to get some other speed putting stats since they are so rare, I've never seen any putting speed stats at all, so I don't have any reference point other than to my own comfortable putts to compare with my max speed ones.

 

[Sewer bill]

There's a challenge for you and seabass next time you crack open a cold one with the boys

It would be interesting to get some other speed putting stats since they are so rare, I've never seen any putting speed stats at all, so I don't have any reference point other than to my own comfortable putts.

Hell yeah definitely going to test some out.