Why Disc Golf Monkey events rock!

[ScottyLove]

3 players in MM1 paying $40 each. Player's pack was choice of Trilogy tourney stamped disc, 3 color printed cotton T, and DD koozie. PDGA says C-Tier payout is 85% after fees and package value taken out...

85% of $120 is $102 and I get $105 for first! No monies going to other divisions, no monies being moved to Pro side, paid out MG1 and FA1 with only 2 players, and paid out cash to FPO with only entrant.

These guys run the best tournaments around for your Am dollars. I don't want hear "not sustainable" because this is the 8th year of the tour and 2013 average attendance was 96 players. Also, TD report is always in PDGA hands before NOON on Monday after tournament. Find a 2014 Monkey See, Monkey Do stop near you!!

2014 Schedule

 

[Rob Martin]

*birdie button*

 

[Rob Martin]

As info 85% is for all players in the division not just the top finisher.

 

[Royal Hill]

Scotty,

Tell me more about what makes this series tick. I bet it also has something more than just money in/money redistributed out.

But if the emphasis is on money -
Is it money added from "the outside" ? (rather than redistributing entries, outside cash equivalent sponsor money)
Is it advantage gained by wholesale, or valuation, bulk purchasing power?
Advantage gained by event directing team sacraficially giving (ultimately in their time and own money?)
Is there a synergy between event directorship and retailing (one and the same?)
All the above?

Outside of money -
Is it killer promotional draw?
Is it great service levels, energetic customer relations, smiles?
Is there any defining elements of the event culture, set up, amenities?
Is it courses in demand? High player participation in the area (I.e. demand is in abundance)

I like to hear success case examples and then find the good take away points. And I know it's not always about the money. I remember the great thread about the women's rocky mountain event that someone started by boasting about the payout with the assumption that that was everything for success. Then we heard example after example from attenders that shared that it was really about the other things (in addition) that were as important (service, community, catering and attention)

Good stuff.

 

[JC17393]

Sounds like they're essentially giving everything out at cost. Good for them if that's what they want to do. If they're reasonably assured they're going to get a minimum number of players at each event, it's a risk but easy enough to break even.

A $40 entry breaks down something like this...
$5 wholesale tee shirt
$8 wholesale disc
free koozie (presuming DD tournament package, those are thrown in)
$2 PDGA fee
$25 wholesale for payout

$25 X 3 players = $75 wholesale + 40% markup ($30) = $105 in retail value

Labor of love for sure. Not a model that will work for most, but if it works for them, that's great.

 

[Three Putt]

It's a vendor series; DGM rolls up with a trailer full of stuff to sell at the events. He uses disc golf events not as a profit-generating entity but as promotion for his business. He gets some great discounts on his merch and seems OK with passing those savings on to the players in his series. He's a nice guy and has built a loyal following of players from a decent-sized mid market town. He travels around in about a 100 mile radius from Springfield, MO and runs events all over that area.

I think the main draw in the end is the huge Am payouts.

BTW: I've volunteered at his events and didn't even get a thank you for my time, so I'm not nearly as smitten as the people who have played in his events. :\

 

[Pwingles]

@ 3P
Thats very un russ like, i hope it was just an odd occurance. But either way its unfortunate and im sure he appreciated it.

 

[scarpfish]

I have no problem with TD's who want to pay out their merch at cost. I do have a problem with any notion that all TD's should start doing that, and the even more ridiculous notion that a few have expressed on here that any TD who makes any sort of profit is a crook. Sometimes that margin off Am merch is why they started TD'ing in the first place. In some instances, that money goes back to the local club, for use on local courses.

I honestly wouldn't mind trying to make Four States this year.

 

[Three Putt]

@ 3P
Thats very un russ like, i hope it was just an odd occurance. But either way its unfortunate and im sure he appreciated it.

Lol...maybe if the events had ended before dark, I would have had the time to hang out and shoot the ****.

The "cram in extra holes so we can take more players, back up the course and end after 7pm" thing is the main criticism I've heard our locals have of the DGM events.

 

[Pwingles]

Lol...maybe if the events had ended before dark, I would have had the time to hang out and shoot the ****.

The "cram in extra holes so we can take more players, back up the course and end after 7pm" thing is the main criticism I've heard our locals have of the DGM events.

Wont argue with the last part. I think that sentiment finally has been heard. I dont think he will be doing that terribly often this year. So far he has capped his first few at 90 and been clear he isnt adding extras. But ya, it was frustrating last coulle of years at times because of the very long rounds and sometimes lack of daylight. Happened at your course twice :/

I dont fault him for wanting to add more folks. It couldve been resolved sooner, better late than never tho

 

[Three Putt]

I dont fault him for wanting to add more folks. It couldve been resolved sooner, better late than never tho

Good to hear that has been taken care of.

There are places that you can add holes with 5-somes and get away with it. Lebanon is so wide open that it doesn't have the "lost disc/stuck in the shule" kind of delays that plague the Rolla course. You can probably get away with it there. You just couldn't get away with it here and be done before 7:00pm.

 

[ScottyLove]

Some secrets to the success... and I can speak on these issues as both a player most of the events and a TD for a tour stop as well.

Russ and crew go out of their way to be hospitable. (3Ps example is the anomaly for sure and playing the last 3 holes in the dark was not fun that year). Many avid followers like myself show up early to warm up on the holes but also help roll out extra baskets when needed, set up temp tees, and anything else that may need doing. But yes, I'd say the Am payout is perhaps the big draw. At each stop the player pack costs have been offset by local club fundraiser (I will tell you businesses WANT to give you their money when approach the right way) and even grant writing (like this weekend)... so that leaves all entry fees available to payout based on the PDGA schedules. 50% of each division will get a voucher.

As a dealer, Russ buys discs a wholesale, but we trade our vouchers in for retail... so the bigger am payout is really more profit for him. I don't know why that bothers so many folks... he makes a nice living doing this and it's America for crying out loud. This is why I cringe when I hear about am fee going into the pro pool to pay pros. That simply isn't required.

So on a C-Tier where the TD can keep 15% of the entry fee and have some built-in margins on merch, it's quite easy to see why this is a successful venture oh hist part. Add to that Doubles usually the night before, clinics by big name pros (John E McCray did a clinic this Thursday and won the pro side of the tourney), the general fun banter the followers have with each other and the DGM staff, and yes... it's a fun experience all around. I see lots of smiles at each stop.

We play great courses, get a quality player pack, and top shelf payouts. What's not to like?

 

[Three Putt]

Part of the deal is that back in the day we would run events and have a club inventory of <200 discs on hand. So when events started to get big in the mid 90's you would have these huge Am fields and call out the cash out from lowest to highest. The last Amateur winner called would be the Advanced Am winner, who won $150 worth of $8 discs (DX was all that was made) and got to pick through what was left of the inventory after everybody else got paid out. They would end up with a stack of 19 discs that they didn't want. That was teh suXXsors.

So what we did was start pre-bagging the payout so that there were max weight Vipers in the Advanced Am winners bag. The lower payout winners hated it becasue instead of getting to choose what they wanted from the entire inventory, they got a bag with a 150 class Shark in it. Neither option we had seemed to make people happy.

The only solution to that is more inventory. That kinda forces you to work with a vendor to show up with a trailer and provide the merch unless a Club wants to sit on a huge inventory. Russ sees this as better events, which they are. He said to me one time that "the days of getting a bag of discs and that is good enough are over."

No problem except at that point you pay the vendor face value for the voucher and the vendor keeps the differential. The differential used to be money that the club made to pay for local course improvements. Events go from being things that made local clubs money to something that costs them money. You raise all the sponsorship to have an event, then pay the proceeds back to a vendor who handled your payout.

I have no problem with people as players wanting those kinds of events, but as a local organizer I have a course that needs $10,000 worth of work. We had two DGM events. They cost us money to put on and made us nothing. We still need $10,000 to fix Ber Juan. I think the sponsorship money we raised to have two DGM events should have been used on Ber Juan. It's hard for me to justify all the resources we dedicated to two events when we have clearly defined need. If we had anything to show from them, it would be easier for me to be on board.

Now that money for course improvements has to come from someplace else, so we have more begging for money to do after we already begged for money. It wouldn't bother me so much except I hate begging for money.

Players don't care, though. If they big payout is there they don't care where the money goes.

In the end DGM puts on very good events. That's good for players. It forces us to find a way other than events to raise money for course improvements becasue we can't compete with payouts he has, and that sorta takes all the fun out of it.

 

[DavidSauls]

It is a bit easier for a disc golf vendor to be lavish with Am payouts, since they can hope to make up for it with additional sales, either at the event or afterwards. It's marketing.

 

[Three Putt]

It is a bit easier for a disc golf vendor to be lavish with Am payouts, since they can hope to make up for it with additional sales, either at the event or afterwards. It's marketing.

Exactly. Vendors have the ability to be very generous becasue they have other ways to make money that day. They have on-site sales that make being at events worth their time. The events are promotions that lead people to buy from them down the road. There are a lot of financial advantages to running events for vendors. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's not a formula everyone can follow. I'm currently in the midst of clearing the debris from a tournament in which, for our own unique reasons, we devoted a tremendous number of hours and offered fairly light payouts. We're not in position to solicit (or beg) money from sponsors to give to players. So we hope that the other things we offer will make our events worth paying for.

I am quite interested in what these guys are doing, outside of the players packs and payouts, to make their events more successful. The clinics, doubles, stuff like that.

Which isn't to find any fault with what they're doing, or players enjoying it.

 

[ScottyLove]

I guess I just see it different. The tournaments here aren't meant to make the club money... usually break even. Last year we made $200. We make our real money running 3 leagues a week. This past Wednesday had 28 folks show up... $28 to the club fund and $28 to the ace pot. We used to then pay out the other $84, but now we keep the am $$ and payout in... guess what.. vouchers. We had 20 ams, so we added $60 to the club fund.

Course improvements and such come from our general fund which was over $5000 before we split the purchase price of new baskets with the city.

Now I know you can't get that kind of turnout in Rolla... but I know I could run a C-Tier event and keep 15% of the profit without calling in a vendor and still make everyone happy. I'd simply purchase enough plastic wholesale to do the payouts... a good cross-section of new stuff. This is how Moberly did it last year. Nobody complained about the selection. Can't tough Russ' trailer, but good enough. Do that twice a year and you'll have a nice start towards improvements. Run an un-sanctioned and do whatever you like.

Build a good relationship with the city and it's even easier. Lake of the Ozarks bought a Gator for the new course... is building a pavilion just for for the course and I think a shed to store the Gator and other necessary supplies in it. Again, armed with the right message, local businesses would love to give you money. We raised over $3000.00 last year for the Jefferson City Open. Hard work... but I'm willing to do it. My son is doing his Eagle Scout project building benches for our new course and city couldn't wait to write the check for the lumber.

Perhaps I too will get tired of this in the years to come... dunno. I eat, sleep, drink, and skip sex for this sport right now... I travel around the country playing in any tournament I can. Our sport is growing and it's growing fast. Time to get on board or get left behind in yesteryear.

 

[DavidSauls]

Ah, but there are a lot of situations out there. Not all have clubs running leagues, supportive governments, or any good reasons for businesses to give money. Not all have people willing to do the hard work to scrounge up money to give away. It doesn't mean they can't run good tournaments; it just means they have to be good in ways that don't involve giving players a lot of stuff.

I'm of mixed feelings on the entire concept of big payouts. On the one hand, I understand why players like nice payouts, and applaud tournaments going to the work to make it happen. On the other hand, I feel like we're bribing people to come to our events; if they wouldn't come without a big payment, what does that say about the quality of the event itself?

 

[Royal Hill]

As usual, I'm finding my views in line with Mr Sauls again. (are we bribing too much, entitlement baiting, why are we giving the store away so often)

I appreciate this discussion, as we've had these same tough talks ourselves locally all the time.

I understand that when promoters, who are also merchandisers, who are also donors, and labor of love types come along its a perfect storm in a way.

fantastic leveraging all advantages on all fronts, as long as it lasts.

unbeatable, really. Great. unless it becomes not great. (because of the unbeatable part) ?What happens when this promoter burns a bridge, goes away, stays and ruffles, folds, gets sloppy, gets audited, has a health crisis, personal crisis, suffers from an unfounded smear campaign… whatever? If you know disc golf… its bound to happen…(even in a best meaning way)… why argue with history? I know, why question todays success?

I understand and sympathize with 3putts lamenting the loss of his clubs ability to provide for their own as they used to. I do think it'd be possible for them to get it back (someday). If I was there I'd rally the club to still host some events with the intent of being revenue positive (for fundraising). Run events on that platform, and don't even try to be the better payout. Fish for different players. Use different bait. You might be surprised what other fish are out there.

Anyway, someday - God forbid if the promoter falters, or any of the beforelisted happens, the club will be there to stand in the gap and keep the community together.

'cause when the promoter perfect storm fails… it usually fails spectacularly..right? And it leaves a big burned effect on the community in the chaos that happens following

 

[Three Putt]

Ah, but there are a lot of situations out there. Not all have clubs running leagues, supportive governments, or any good reasons for businesses to give money. Not all have people willing to do the hard work to scrounge up money to give away. It doesn't mean they can't run good tournaments; it just means they have to be good in ways that don't involve giving players a lot of stuff.

Every situation is different. We can't re-create what Jeff City did for a lot of reasons. We have to do something different.

I'm of mixed feelings on the entire concept of big payouts. On the one hand, I understand why players like nice payouts, and applaud tournaments going to the work to make it happen. On the other hand, I feel like we're bribing people to come to our events; if they wouldn't come without a big payment, what does that say about the quality of the event itself?

You really have to want to compete to pay to play a game that you can play any day for free.

We have a real problem as disc golfers with casual players; we do a lot of things to try to force casual players to be something more. We try to make our events attractive to casual players. The problem with that is that you are trying to plug people who don't care about the competition into a competitive event, and you do that by bribing them with players packs and deep Rec division payouts. It's a lot of resources devoted to trying to get people to take a recreational activity more seriously, and I'm not convinced that it is accomplishing anything.