18 holes or 9?

[nothinbuttree]

This may have been discussed, if it has, please link if you remember the thread name...

For course posting/reviewing purposes, what should the following courses be called?

A) 9 baskets, two teepads per basket, fairly similar flight paths--think long and short tees on a typical hole. Maybe 40-80' difference between them.

B) 9 or 10 baskets, but the holes play totally differently--the teepad for 11 is near the basket of 9, and plays back toward 8's basket, 12 teepad near the basket for 8, plays to 7's basket, etc. Basically the course plays backward.

I ask because it seems more courses are going in which used to be called 9 holes, but they are called 18 holes here. I mean, many courses have short and long teepads for each of their 18 baskets, but no one ever says it is a 36 hole course...

Stubbs Park DGC in Centerville, OH is an example of A.
Life in Christ Fellowship DGC in West Jefferson, OH is an example of B (10 baskets). It at least felt like 18 different holes, but still only 10 baskets...

There are more, but those are the most recent I have played.

 

[DavidSauls]

A) 9 holes

B) Probably 18 holes, if they're really distinct enough, but with a disclaimer in the description.

We ran into something like this with a private course. We have two overlapping 18-hole layouts, with 29 baskets. So 7 shared baskets. 3 shared tees (same tee to different basket). When you play both, they feel like 2 very different rounds.

It's a bit of a square-peg-in-a-round-hole problem. No description is quite accurate. It seems a cheat to call it 2 courses, because it's all on the same footprint of land. It didn't fit as 18-holes on this site, because the versions of, say, Hole 8, are in very different places. In the end, we describe it as 2 overlapping layouts, but on this site it shows as 36 holes so we could squeeze the hole descriptions and photos in, and put a disclaimer.

 

[ejvogie]

A) Anyone claiming 18 holes is either a liar, a cheat, or a big dummy

B) What David said

 

[sisyphus]

In simplest terms, I guess I tend to think of the number of holes for a course should be the number of fairways that can be used safely at the same time. Examples:
Indianapolis has a number of courses they list as 18's but are really 9 by 2 in some way.
Having played it, Life in Christ is actually not safe to play even nine concurrently, but should probably be listed as 9.
Idlewild has 24 distinct fairways, some with two tees, some with two baskets, and they play a DGPT layout of only 18.

 

[DavidSauls]

Even B) as 18 holes doesn't seem quite right...there may be 18 tees and 18 fairways, sort of, but only 9 baskets means only 9 greens.

But there's no better answer. It's more than 9, a little less than a full 18, so neither is really adequate to describe it.

 

[ru4por]

9 baskets............nine pole holes..........nine holes.

 

[dreadlock86]

somewhere in the general guidelines i remember seeing this: 9 baskets (or any number, i guess) should only be called 18 holes if there are 18 numbered tees.

that said, i've seen what is clearly a 9 hole course with 18 numbered tees, seemingly just so locals or the course designer can feel better about their course. in my personal opinion i'd make it even stricter. for me, regardless of what the tee signs say, a shared fairway to the same basket is one hole with two tees, even if the tee shot is distinctly different.

 

[Cerealman]

Goreville Village Park in southern Illinois goes so far as to have two similar but separate tees and then puts two numbers on the basket. (Or a fraction, haha.)

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/mobile/media.php?id=12265&mode=media

Nice try. I'd still call this 9 holes with two tees.

 

[glassila]

Maybe we should consider how many players can play the course at once?

If a course has 9 baskets there can be 36 people on that course, 4 on each hole. Calling a 9 basket course an 18 hole course doesn't double the number of players that can be playing!

Like ru4por said "baskets = holes".:clap:

 

[nothinbuttree]

somewhere in the general guidelines i remember seeing this: 9 baskets (or any number, i guess) should only be called 18 holes if there are 18 numbered tees.

that said, i've seen what is clearly a 9 hole course with 18 numbered tees, seemingly just so locals or the course designer can feel better about their course. in my personal opinion i'd make it even stricter. for me, regardless of what the tee signs say, a shared fairway to the same basket is one hole with two tees, even if the tee shot is distinctly different.

Both my examples have the two tee sign thing going on. I think niners get so much negative publicity for some reason, perhaps many course designers feel the need to have an 18 hole course at all costs. At some point, don't we need to start differentiating ourselves from ball golf? MI has quite a few 24-27 hole courses, so there is that. Idlewild is actually 24 holes as well, though DGPT only plays 18.

I like the thought about fairways--how many fairways could be played at once. Another way to look at is IF there were a tournament being held there, how many groups could be playing at once, say with a shotgun start? For both my examples, the answer is clearly 9.

So for the courses on DGCR that are definitely in category 1 at least, that still show up as 18 HOLE courses when doing a search, is there a recommended strategy for suggesting this get changed? Even clearing up the guidelines for how to list a course? Or is it even worth our time?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I like the thought about fairways--how many fairways could be played at once. Another way to look at is IF there were a tournament being held there, how many groups could be playing at once, say with a shotgun start? For both my examples, the answer is clearly 9.

So for the courses on DGCR that are definitely in category 1 at least, that still show up as 18 HOLE courses when doing a search, is there a recommended strategy for suggesting this get changed? Even clearing up the guidelines for how to list a course? Or is it even worth our time?

I basically agree with "all of the above."

It would be best if courses were listed based on "the # of holes that can be safely played simultaneously."

But DGCR's Course Info page clearly has a field for Holes/Baskets (see thumbnail). That should clarify the picture for a good 90% or more of the courses out there. There will always be some oddball courses that defy simple descriptions / don't fit into a check box.

But once you see the #of baskets/holes, you have some understanding as to whether (or not) something funky's going on to arrive at the #of holes. So I'm not convinced it's a big enough deal to change anything.

 

[Cerealman]

I think niners get so much negative publicity for some reason

Agreed. However, when I'm traveling and don't have much time, I appreciate a well-positioned, easy-to-navigate niner. In those moments, a nine-basket course marketing itself as 18 holes is a slight inconvenience.

 

[DavidSauls]

I like the thought about fairways--how many fairways could be played at once. Another way to look at is IF there were a tournament being held there, how many groups could be playing at once, say with a shotgun start? For both my examples, the answer is clearly 9.

It would be best if courses were listed based on "the # of holes that can be safely played simultaneously."

Alas, one size doesn't always fit all. What about courses that rarely have enough people on them for it to matter?

From two 18-hole layouts at Stoney Hill, we've cobbled together as many as 27 for a tournament that had 100 people. It was unsanctioned and we did one compromise we wouldn't do at a sanctioned tournament -- a basket that is played from two entirely different directions, was included twice, requiring some slight delays. But we drew the line at the part of a fairway that is played in opposite directions, on the different layouts.

360 days a year, it's rare to have 2 groups playing at the same time, so the overlaps have no bearing on capacity.

This could equally apply to a 9-holer with distinctly different tees, but very little traffic.

 

[nothinbuttree]

But DGCR's Course Info page clearly has a field for Holes/Baskets (see thumbnail). That should clarify the picture for a good 90% or more of the courses out there. There will always be some oddball courses that defy simple descriptions / don't fit into a check box.

This does fairly well address the issue, agreed. I've never trained my brain to look at that though-just like I STILL haven't trained my brain to look at teesigns for next tee direction. Its on many, but I still get the basket wondering where to go next.

In fact, I ONLY just realized this was information provided when I started this thread. Literally noticed it for the first time. That's not DGCR's fault though--I am still learning things this site does! Is there a tour?

 

[ru4por]

This does fairly well address the issue, agreed. I've never trained my brain to look at that though-just like I STILL haven't trained my brain to look at teesigns for next tee direction. Its on many, but I still get the basket wondering where to go next.

In fact, I ONLY just realized this was information provided when I started this thread. Literally noticed it for the first time. That's not DGCR's fault though--I am still learning things this site does! Is there a tour?

That is because it is information better provided at the basket, not the tee, IMO. The best next tee signs are taped tines on the basket. Nearly impossible to miss, as you are digging out the 70 ft putt you just canned!!

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[chevis]

this topic comes up every year & the answer is, it depends... mainly on how busy the course will be. most everyone likes variety, so providing the most interesting holes while still being safe is your best bet.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138905
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135009
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132885

 

[dreadlock86]

I like the thought about fairways--how many fairways could be played at once. Another way to look at is IF there were a tournament being held there, how many groups could be playing at once, say with a shotgun start? For both my examples, the answer is clearly 9.

nice

So for the courses on DGCR that are definitely in category 1 at least, that still show up as 18 HOLE courses when doing a search, is there a recommended strategy for suggesting this get changed? Even clearing up the guidelines for how to list a course? Or is it even worth our time?

if i happen upon one of these courses, i report it to the admin. Tim does seem to defer to the tee signs so i mention whether the course has them and what they say. in almost all the cases i've come across, there are no signs or just temp laminated ones.

it's worth the time for me. i'm anal about details. i've also gained so much from this site so i try to be a responsible DGCR citizen and edit course info or hole info when needed, add course condition updates, write reviews, etc. i try to take responsibility for the course pages of the courses that i frequent. a small but dedicated group of like-minded and regionally diverse users could keep a lot of course pages up to date, particularly in the metro hot spots and DG oases.

 

[Billipo]

I had a similar situation with proposed variations on a 9 hole course to allow same skill play on the 9 holes so multiple rounds could be played with some variation between rounds. BTW: The proposal is still active.

Post: 2 loop - 9 hole course proposal

Still consider it a 9 hole course. If you play it 4 times with variations not gonna call it a 36 hole course!

 

[nothinbuttree]

if i happen upon one of these courses, i report it to the admin. Tim does seem to defer to the tee signs so i mention whether the course has them and what they say. in almost all the cases i've come across, there are no signs or just temp laminated ones.

Yeah, the examples I gave both have 18 teesigns, but if the current litmus test is that, I guess they will stay that way on the site. There is clarity that it is 9 baskets so that is something. The only issue really is if one is searching by # of holes, some extra courses may show up, I guess that's not the worst thing in the world...

 

[DFrah]

Yeah, the examples I gave both have 18 teesigns, but if the current litmus test is that, I guess they will stay that way on the site. There is clarity that it is 9 baskets so that is something. The only issue really is if one is searching by # of holes, some extra courses may show up, I guess that's not the worst thing in the world...

Agree. I don't see it as a major issue, since the number of holes is already differentiated from the number of baskets.

So far I believe I have only encountered three courses like this in all my travels. In all three cases, there were 18 clearly marked tee signs playing to 9 baskets.

I think I have played a couple others that have 9 clearly marked tee signs playing to fewer than 9 baskets (e.g. holes 4 and 8 shared a basket, or something like that).