The Whole "Discing Down" Phenomena

[Nick C]

I've been seeing a lot of posts/threads about people wanting to disc down their bag. Maybe my understanding of this is off but it seems like people mean that they are eliminating high speed drivers and moving to using slower, more understable drivers and fairway drivers. It seems like the purpose of this is to improve their form. (If i'm completely off so far then let me know)

While I agree somewhat with this tactic and think this is a great strategy for beginners, I see a few flaws that I thought I would share. I'll take any kind of feedback on this so feel free to say whatever you want. (You won't hurt my feelings)

One problem I see with this method is while you may be getting better form (which I'm not sure I 100% agree with yet) you are also not training your arm to get any stronger. Just like anything else, in order to increase your muscle strength you have to push them past their limitations. If all your throwing are slower, more understable discs then when you jump back up to higher speed discs you won't have the arm strength necessary to get them to do what you want them to do.

Second, high speed drivers allow you to have birdie opportunities that you could have never gotten without them. Sure this depends on the type of course you are playing so this statement may or may not pertain to you. Maybe i just play a more high risk, high reward style but I like the feeling of stepping up to a tee knowing that I can reach this hole with a good drive while the guy next to me is going to have to settle for a Par at best. What if you find yourself on a hole that is more open but really far? Wouldn't it be helpful to have a disc you know you can bomb out farther than your others?

All that being said I think it's a good idea to practice with control discs, but don't forget about some of the big boys too.

 

[Technohic]

You should still be developing throw strength (I dont like arm strength because it is just a small percent of what goes into a throw) because you should be working on being able to throw those slower discs just as "hard" as you would a faster driver. The result is to reduce OAT which increase distance by reducing drag. There comes a point when you should pick up faster discs though as well particularly to get nose angle right.

 

[Pink Elephant]

I was under the impression that discing down was recommended for people who don't throw far. Throwing a speed 13 driver won't give you any advantage, it will just meathook on you and coax you into bad habits.

 

[Waddly Hobbins]

Arm strength only plays a small part in throwing a disc far. I remember hearing that an average fit person maxes out their distance at about 300' when they use only arm strength. To push yourself to throwing 350'-500'+ you have to be able to use snap instead of strong arming it. Snap is what really what sends a disc flying the furthest because it uses the gyroscopic properties of the disc to its full extent. Learning to properly snap a disc with a slower, less stable disc is easier to do than a fast over stable one. Often times if you don't have proper snap, you use off axis tourqe to keep the fast/overstable disc going straight.

 

[jongoff09]

I was under the impression that discing down was recommended for people who don't throw far. Throwing a speed 13 driver won't give you any advantage, it will just meathook on you and coax you into bad habits.

This was my understanding as well. This winter, I used only mids and putters for a while with only a couple of throws with a speed 9 driver. I worked on form with the mids and putters and when I threw the driver it was to see if I could get it out any further than them. Once I was getting a big gain in distance with the speed 9 drivers, I put them in the bag and started working on faster discs. Right now I still only have speed 10 discs in the bag, but that is because I can throw them far enough for my local courses. I am working with even faster discs in a field.

 

[garublador]

It seems like the purpose of this is to improve their form. (If i'm completely off so far then let me know)

Correct, the purpose is to learn to throw clean (no OAT) and nose down. Slower discs require clean form and some nose down to fly well. Fast discs mask OAT and require more nose down which can be difficult to get right off the bat. They'll fly well if you're already throwing hard and nose down, but aren't condusive to learning to throw hard and nose down.

One problem I see with this method is while you may be getting better form (which I'm not sure I 100% agree with yet) you are also not training your arm to get any stronger. Just like anything else, in order to increase your muscle strength you have to push them past their limitations. If all your throwing are slower, more understable discs then when you jump back up to higher speed discs you won't have the arm strength necessary to get them to do what you want them to do.

There are a couple things that are really wrong with that whole idea.

1) Increasing arm strength won't help you throw farther unless you're already throwing far. (As a side note, you'll actually want stronger core, back and leg muscles before you want actual arm strength.) You have to learn to transfer as much energy as possible to the disc to make being able to generate more energy useful. Most players don't trasnfer energy to the disc well so getting stronger won't help much.

2) Throwing faster drivers won't help build the muscles needed any better than throwing slower drivers. In fact, they promote using the wrong muscles at the wrong time which actually weakens your throw. When thrown correctly, you can actually throw most putters and mids I recommend and some fairway drivers harder than many distance drivers and still maintain control. You don't need to throw weaker to throw slower discs.

Second, high speed drivers allow you to have birdie opportunities that you could have never gotten without them. Sure this depends on the type of course you are playing so this statement may or may not pertain to you. Maybe i just play a more high risk, high reward style but I like the feeling of stepping up to a tee knowing that I can reach this hole with a good drive while the guy next to me is going to have to settle for a Par at best. What if you find yourself on a hole that is more open but really far? Wouldn't it be helpful to have a disc you know you can bomb out farther than your others?

Birdie oppertunities have nothing to do with learning to throw correctly. The purpose of discing down isn't to shave strokes off your score immedately, so arguing that it won't do that doesn't make sense.

The idea isn't to do it forever. The idea is to do it to gain a certain level of competence to make all discs fly better for you. Once you're getting those slower drivers out to 320'-350' with control then it's probably benefitial to add a faster disc in there to help work on getting the nose down even more. Before that they'll probably do more harm than good.

My understanding is that Dan Beto learned to throw that far using mostly Wizards, Rocs, Cyclones and Teebirds.

 

[rocthecourse]

When I disc down I will drop down to an Aviar, Roc and a Teebird which are very versatile molds. Working on form is part of it but you also really learn those discs and what they can do.

 

[sloppydisc]

What Garublador said.

I have been doing the disc down thing fairly consistently for several months. It has helped notnonly with my form, but my scoring as well. I usually stay in the fairway now, as opposed to being 30' in the woods. I broke out some drivers last week for a practice round and a tourney. I did have a little more success than I used to with the drivers, but still am not getting enough extra distance to throw them instead of my mids. It does work, and has helped me learn to control my mids and putters more, while learning a few more shots. But you don't have to do it all the time. for a tourney or just to kick your friends backside one day, feel free to break out that Katana, Nuke or whatever and have at it. But discing down does help. But at least for me, it's not a quick fix.

 

[elnino]

i think the point is throw your mids on all holes less than 350.....U can throw your wasp that far adn it will land in the fairway everytime...u start cranking some snap on a boss and you over shoot 100feet past and 50 in the woods....not a good idea esp in wooded courses where discing down is important.

guys who throw bosses 300 are just going to lose strokes if miss there lines or hyzer out into the woods.....

funny thing yesterday my friend asks me as a park a 300 foot heavily wooded hole,"that a boss?" no a dx roc! just gotta show them that mids are almost as far and can s threw the woods on better lines

 

[Raptor]

I've been in my own disc down phase for a couple weeks, where I've only been playing with a Pro-D and ESP Buzzz. Between the two, I'm really getting a feel for shaping different lines and getting better snap and accuracy to my drives. Sure, the mids won't go as far at first, but the point is not to get a better score every time you play. Eventually as I improve with the mids to the point where I'm more accurate and getting pretty good distance, I'll introduce a couple fairway drivers, then build back up to my Orc and Wraith. The idea is that I will have honed my technique enough that I'll be able to throw a max distance driver with more D, accuracy, and consistency.

So far, it's working out pretty well. I can definitely see some improvement in my throw, since I'm focusing more on technique than I am just muscling a disc for max D. I'd recommend trying it out for a little while.

Some of my friends don't believe in the method, though. They'd just as soon throw a max D driver for instantaneous distance. You really just have to let go of shooting for the best score and focus on getting better.

 

[Mike C]

One problem I see with this method is while you may be getting better form (which I'm not sure I 100% agree with yet) you are also not training your arm to get any stronger. Just like anything else, in order to increase your muscle strength you have to push them past their limitations. If all your throwing are slower, more understable discs then when you jump back up to higher speed discs you won't have the arm strength necessary to get them to do what you want them to do.

This relies on the assumption that when you throw understable or slow plastic, you should ease up on the power of your throw, which isn't necessarily the case. You can throw putters and understable fairway drivers at full power.

 

[BrotherDave]

What if you find yourself on a hole that is more open but really far? Wouldn't it be helpful to have a disc you know you can bomb out farther than your others?

Everybody has pretty much covered it so far but I'll tackle this one specifically. The answer is no, it wouldn't be more helpful to have a disc I know I can bomb out farther than my others b/c that disc doesn't really exist for me, unless by "bomb" you mean outdistance by ~30'.

Because that's pretty much all the extra distance I'll get from bombing something other than my trusty Eagles, and sometimes it's on the fairway, sometimes it's not. With Eagle or mids, I'm pretty much on the fairway every time or at least considerably more so, which I'll take over a piddly 30' of extra D.

My advice to anyone who hasn't done this before, go out into a field and throw everything as far as possible, from your putters to your distance drivers. You'll be surprised how close your putters and mids are to your drivers after a little practice.

 

[djjeremiahj]

Discing down, for me, isnt about improving anything but my score.
Discing down means, playing with slower discs to improve your distance with those discs because they are a lot more accurate.

the fact that my home course (SF Golden Gate) 14 of the 18 holes are within my Tbird, Roc or Rhyno range has boosted my score.

Where another guy might need a sidewinder, wraith or boss to drive 325' (and see wild results) i can push my Tbird to this distance. I've watched guys park their buzzz's this distance with pin point accuracy.

Simplest definition of discing down -
When you can push your discs to the following ranges, the game changes immensely. All of the following "benchmark" discs fly predictably (to a fault) and almost nearly straight (if thrown right) in the upper ranges.

Putter: 200'+
Roc/Buzzz: 250'+
Tbird/Eagle: 300'+

When you see the pin marker say "305' to the pin" do you pick up your speed 10 (or better) disc or think about the Tbird or Roc?
You might think, sidewinder.
I'll think Tbird.(only because i still cant push my Roc that far)
A (good) semi pro will think Roc/Buzzz
and the Pro will run at the pin, or have an "automatic" park with his roc.

Dave Feldberg - RE: Eagle
My go to Driver. I can count on its stability in all situations. Great from 325-400 for backhand and 250-325 for consistent forehands.

Ken Climo
"The KC Champion TeeBird is my choice for most shots in the 325-400 ft. range. This disc holds lines and glides well. Pinpoint accuracy is why I throw this gem."

How far can you throw your Putter, Roc or Tbird?

 

[Nick C]

Arm strength only plays a small part in throwing a disc far. I remember hearing that an average fit person maxes out their distance at about 300' when they use only arm strength. To push yourself to throwing 350'-500'+ you have to be able to use snap instead of strong arming it. Snap is what really what sends a disc flying the furthest because it uses the gyroscopic properties of the disc to its full extent. Learning to properly snap a disc with a slower, less stable disc is easier to do than a fast over stable one. Often times if you don't have proper snap, you use off axis tourqe to keep the fast/overstable disc going straight.

I agree with you on snap but generating the snap for an understable disc is much different than a high speed one

 

[tstack10]

I agree with you on snap but generating the snap for an understable disc is much different than a high speed one

Why?


From what I've read it's only different if you are using oat when throwing your disc.

 

[Link]

I have only been playing a little over 2 weeks. The guy that introduced me to my first game on July 15th of this month let me borrow his Star Wraith and a approach/putter. He showed me how to flick and how to throw backhand, I threw the backhand 200 yards, but I flicked the wraith consistently 280-350 ft. on day 1. I have already played about 12 times and if I disc down I think I wouldn't be able to birdie as many times as I do now. Discing down on my backhand until I get the form down might not be a bad idea, but I can always flick on a long drive and never really drive forehand unless my target is under 200ft. (or laying up under 200ft)

 

[Nick C]

Why?


From what I've read it's only different if you are using oat when throwing your disc.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that if I threw a cyclone and a surge with the same snap, form, power and released both flat, that the cyclone would turn over into the ground every time.

On that note you guys are being really helpful as I started this thread more to understand why so many people are trying this rather than this being a thread about me criticizing this method. I throw my Z buzzz or Wasp on almost any hole around 350ft and in with the Buzzz probably being one of the discs I throw most off a tee. My point was that it doesn't make sense to completely throw out the high speed drivers but it seems like people are doing this as a very temporary measure which I wasn't understanding before

djjeremiahj -
Discing down means, playing with slower discs to improve your distance with those discs because they are a lot more accurate.

When you see the pin marker say "305' to the pin" do you pick up your speed 10 (or better) disc or think about the Tbird or Roc?

This clears it up a lot. I always reach for my Buzzz on those kinds of holes. But see anything farther than that I'm probably reaching for a Surge/Nuke/Destroyer depending on the hole

 

[rocthecourse]

After looking at what you carry in your bag and seeing your distance with a Buzzz my only recommendation for discing down would be to look at a fairway driver like a Teebird, or any 7 speed driver, to use between your mids and faster drivers. You might even be surprised at how far you can throw it.

 

[Pink Elephant]

Everybody has pretty much covered it so far but I'll tackle this one specifically. The answer is no, it wouldn't be more helpful to have a disc I know I can bomb out farther than my others b/c that disc doesn't really exist for me, unless by "bomb" you mean outdistance by ~30'.

Because that's pretty much all the extra distance I'll get from bombing something other than my trusty Eagles, and sometimes it's on the fairway, sometimes it's not. With Eagle or mids, I'm pretty much on the fairway every time or at least considerably more so, which I'll take over a piddly 30' of extra D.

My advice to anyone who hasn't done this before, go out into a field and throw everything as far as possible, from your putters to your distance drivers. You'll be surprised how close your putters and mids are to your drivers after a little practice.

What happened to the Halo bro? The last paragraph is good stuff, it doesn't apply to me so much anymore, but I wish I would have figured that out sooner.

 

[NothinButChing]

I was under the impression that discing down was recommended for people who don't throw far. Throwing a speed 13 driver won't give you any advantage, it will just meathook on you and coax you into bad habits.

thought so too