Does this count?

[Cgkdisc]

Pros are supposed to have taken the rules test this year to play in NT and Major events. Even if he hadn't taken it yet, more importantly, all members got new rulebooks this year. So is it really ineffective communication or lack of professional responsibility reading the new rules placed right in his hands including the Summary of Changes which would have tipped off that this rule had changed?

 

[chris deitzel]

PDGA made a big mistake with these rules. If the disc ends up in the basket it should count. No matter how it gets there shouldn't matter. If it ends up in the basket it is in. That way you don't have someone saying "well I saw it come in through the top so it doesn't count"

It's silly to have such a gray area. As is now, it is based on what the players in the group believed happened to the disc. How do you tell if you can't see the basket??


Why not just eliminate the gray area and say that any disc that ends up in the basket counts????


Is that so hard to do pdga. Doesn't that make sense?? I don't care if it's a wedgie that gets all the way into the cage or if it drops in from the top of an old Innova basket. Those shots ended up in the basket which is what should be considered in.

come on PDGA!!!

 

[chris deitzel]

A rule is a rule. It shouldn't change based on whether or not someone saw what happened. So if I ace a hole that goes through the cage and into the basket it doesn't count. Unless it was a hole where we couldn't see the basket, then it counts cause no one saw it come in through the cage. Even though the camera man filmed it going in through the cage. But since he isn't in my group and can't make the call, then it counts.

See how silly this is?

If it's in the basket, it is in!!! Plain and simple. Why complicate something that doesn't need to be complicated.

What do you think about that Chuck? Doesn't that seem to make sense? That way there are no discrepencies. Everyone can say "yep that's in" Sure some shots will get lucky and end up going in through top, or through the cage, but who cares? It made it in. And in the end that is what should count. More props to you if you get an ace that goes in from the bottom of the basket.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Chris, while it might seem logical on the surface, it opens up a longer term issue and is a step backwards. The target design isn't fixed and manufacturers look to the specs and rules for tweaking their models. Allowing discs to enter from the top encourages manufacturers to design for that and also to not tighten up the gap size on the side of the targets if that is allowed. The new rules support target improvements where new models do not allow or significantly reduce wedgies and prevent discs from dropping thru the top.

If I'm a target manufacturer and the rule were changed so that any disc supported by the target was in, what should I do? Why I would design it so there was an extra lip on top of the chain suport to catch more DROTs, maybe add another spoked tray similar to the chain support under the basket but above the locking tab and maybe add extra nubby loops all over the target so you might get more discs hanging on them. You can say the Tech Standards group could stop some of this like the extra tray but we don't want to have to go about trying to continually update specs after the fact to prevent creative approaches contrary to having a consistent target for the sport. We definitely can use target improvements but they need to be in a focused around our specified target zone for catching.

As far as making calls being an issue, just take a look around not only in other sports but in our own. We have several places where calls have to be made by the group like missed mando, foot faults, OB/Lost, etc. So paying attention to other player's throws is part of the game. With the new rules, I suspect players will be paying more attention to other players putting now, especially if they use a soft putter.

Note that a ground rule double in baseball is sort of like a disc dropping thru the top. It's only half a home run. If we could have shots that were valued at 0.5 instead of full shots, maybe a drop thru or wedgie could add 1.5 to your score rather than just 1.0 for sinking the putt properly or 2.0 according to the 2011 rules. But until then...

 

[chris deitzel]

Ok, now what do you do with the thousands of courses out there with unacceptable targets???

I don't think it is a step backwards at all.

I just think that it is wrong to have a rule determining your score based on whether someone in your group sees the disc go in properly.

It sure will be embarrassing when someone films an ace that goes in from the top in an NT event and the ace counts because no one saw it go through the top. When by PDGA rules, the shot should not count.

Sure there are flaws with baskets, but there is no way that all the courses used for PDGA events will buy all new baskets just to keep up with a rule change.

Why not just make it plain and simple, if the disc ends up in the basket, it counts??

I am glad the wedgie rule is gone as those should have never counted. It was always funny to watch someone run to the basket to get their disc out before it fell to the ground. That rule change makes sense. But it really just does not make any sense to say that a disc that ends up in the basket does not count?

Don't you think??

It's just another confusing aspect to the rules that is only a rule if someone sees the shot go in. Why not just keep it simple and say if it is in, it's in. No confusion, no controversy, no having to rely on the players in the group to make a call. A rule that works and there is no way to dispute it.

Just seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[chris deitzel]

And can't you enforce new technical standards without it affecting the rule of the disc going into the basket? There are thousands of courses out there with the inferior baskets already. Sure make better standards for new targets, but don't change the rules because the targets most courses have aren't acceptable.

 

[chris deitzel]

AND i HAVE no problem watching the others players shots and saying that the shot went through the top. But it doesn't sit well with me when this changes just because your group cannot see the basket.

It needs to be consistent without relying on the players in the group to make a call. That 1-stroke could mean the difference of thousands of dollars. And what if the guy who finishes 2nd was in another group and sees the disc go through the top, but can't make a call because he is not in the group?

See the problem?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Apparently you didn't read my answer. There's no way the rule will change to supported by the basket or target for the reasons stated. There is zero support among those involved on the Board or RC for the reasons I gave. It's untenable as a policy, a step backwards and against the spirit of the game. No problem in casual play just like casuals many times allow DROTs to count or don't call OB.

NT baskets are supposed to meet Championship standards so no drop thrus expected. We are looking at rules for how video can be used in officiating so your phantom ace scenario captured on video can be prevented. Have you ever seen a foot fault not called but later confirmed on video whether a player sank a shot or not? That happens way more than the phantom ace. If players pay attention to foot faults then paying attention to shots wedging or dropping thru will be a piece of cake.

Simpler isn't always better. Using player score averages as their ratings would be a lot simpler than doing PDGA ratings. But what way is more fair or appropriate?

 

[jenb]

Ima make a basket target that detects an approaching disc and responsively emits bright flashing lights that temporarily blind observers. That way, no one will be able to see the disc enter, and it will be good. I predict massive sales that don't quite offset the massive lawsuits filed by the parents of the children afflicted with seizures by the flashing lights.

 

[chris deitzel]

It just seems pretty stupid to say that shot that landed in the chains doesn't count because it did not enter the basket properly. How does that make sense?

And for the ground rule double, that is a rule that never changes. It is always a ground rule double. Whereas this rule changes based on who is watching the disc.

And yes I have called quite a few foot faults over the years.

I think all of the other changes to the rule make sense. no wedgies, no hanging from nubs, etc, etc. But when a disc is sitting perfectly in the chains, I don't understand how you can say that it does not count? How does that make any sense? Sure it's wonky at best to go in from the bottom of the cage or through the top of the basket, but the disc did end up in the basket supported by the chains. It should count. Yeah, it sucks that there are Mach 2's and Innovas that allow these to happen more frequently than other baskets, but that is a basket design fault.


Now what is the call if the disc goes in and falls out of the bottom or top of the basket. It doesn't count?? It shouldn't because it did not end up in the basket. Now that sucks because it was the baskets fault. How can you make a difference between the 2. If a disc does not count as in for going through the top of the basket, then it shouldn't count as out if it goes out through the top or bottom of the basket.

Chuck you know I respect your opinion. And I am not trying to be rude, it just doesn't make sense. A rule should be set in stone as much as possible, especially a rule such as holing out.

Foot faults are a different call all together. As for Mandos, I believe that they are horrible ideas as well in PDGA events unless you have a spotter on the hole to tell you if the disc passed the mando or not.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If people are upset that discs go thru the top of the baskets on their course, I suggest that they get someone to weld rings on the top so it won't happen. I suspect the galvanized 8" rings sold by DGA for $3 each might work well depending on the type of target that needed help. http://www.discgolfassoc.com/equipment/accessories/equipment-accessories.html

I've got a gram or so of Ed's ashes in discs around my apartment. I don't want them reassembling to haunt me if I even remotely would consider shots coming in from the top to be good, even though I have no vote in the matter.

 

[chris deitzel]

Ed is resting under my bed. That's kinda scary now that I think about it.

I don't think it's good for it to go in the top or bottom. And I wish that this was never an issue, but due to oversights on design or technical standards it is an issue now, and I (mind you this is just an opinion...might even change one day) think that if a disc ends up in the basket then it is in. It should count. Then there are no discrepencies. I don't want to be getting into an argument in my group, causing emotional stress that I have to deal with during a round, because people in the group said the shot doesn't count because they THINK that they saw it go in through the top. Even though the me and the other guy think it went in cleanly. Know what I'm sayin?

It just seems like the debate would be over if the disc landing in the basket counts. It would be consistent without being based on the judgement of the players in the group.

 

[prerube]

If people are upset that discs go thru the top of the baskets on their course, I suggest that they get someone to weld rings on the top so it won't happen. I suspect the galvanized 8" rings sold by DGA for $3 each might work well depending on the type of target that needed help. http://www.discgolfassoc.com/equipment/accessories/equipment-accessories.html

I've got a gram or so of Ed's ashes in discs around my apartment. I don't want them reassembling to haunt me if I even remotely would consider shots coming in from the top to be good, even though I have no vote in the matter.

oh yeah, I have a disc with Ed's ashes and he autographed it

 

[Beef Chief]

im just curious to which disc you were throwing that fell through

I was using a 175g SSS Voodoo.

The baskets on most courses around here in CO, including the famous Beaver Ranch have maybe ~5 "spokes" in the roof. Sometimes the disc will sit on the top, but sometimes falls straight down into the basket tray or chains. That's weird they changed the rule from that counting in 2010, to not in 2011. Oh well, I guess a rule's a rule!

To me dropping through the top seems no different to me than ricocheting off a tree into the basket or skipping of the ground to glide into the chains. Strange stuff.

 

[Beef Chief]

Woops my bad, beaver ranch closed top baskets. Mixed up :doh:

 

[kachtz]

Ace or not an Ace?

11th hole at dahlgren, about 300', threw this putter and heard it hit the chains, went to look at the basket, and this was the result...is this an Ace?

http://img405.imageshack.us/i/imag0089st.jpg

http://img703.imageshack.us/f/imag0088zl.jpg

and just incase this is not an Ace...would this be an Ace if the disc was on the other side of the wall in the same posistion?

 

[xJFK]

i don't think so.

 

[jcf5083]

Not an ace this year. Last year, yes.

 

[scarpfish]

Answer here

 

[prerube]

et tu trey?