Bracing Issues.. too SMALL of a plant step?

[DarwinDave]

https://youtu.be/qrZJ9qafnTg

https://youtu.be/5cjle2Y1iNk

Hello all! First, apologies form the awkward camera angle- was desperate to get some footage on these forums and had to have a stranger shoot them for me.

Also, both these shots are with an overstable speed 11 discs, thrown flat and letting the disc carry me back to the right. Both holes are close to 325' in distance, and both shots ended 10' short and online. Point being, these aren't Max distance attempts or anything, just controlled flat shots I'm attempting. Neither had any nose angle issues and flew with roughly the intended line.

I've been working hard on three aspects of my form. One is a slow and steady run up. Second is keeping the spine vertical, and last has been a bit of feeling the arm fire through quicker with the shoulders still closed. The third is the newest addition and still not perfect by any means, but the first two I feel I have down pretty well.

I honestly don't know if I've ever properly braced into a shot though. I really struggle with walking through the drive. Is it possible that I've forced such a slow delibrate walkup (especially compared to before) that my front foot on the plant step isn't coming out far enough? It doesn't feel possible to brace with my current form as it is. Too upright maybe? My spine angle seems to stay vertical throughout, maybe I'm just never getting the weight over the back foot to load into the brace later, and am more forward weighted from the start to begin with? Any other top heavy huckers out there have issues with weight transfer or bracing?

 

[slowplastic]

You are doing the open front foot early/horse stance, slight over the top with the head/shoulders/spine, and slight shift in front. Everything is just very slight though and you've worked on it enough to get it to "look" almost like the right form, so that's why it's just so hard to see what's going on without having felt the right way to do it.

The second video is easier to spot what's happening from that angle, and at 0.25 speed.

So to go through what I'm seeing, on the X-step you are going with the spine angled toward the back of the teepad/lower body ahead. Pro's will have a slight forward lean, just slight, as SW22 says go in like you're going to dunk a basketball. Your lower body shouldn't be dragging your spine forward into the shot.

Then as you turn back you aren't doing the load into the rear hip/from behind thing...I'll get into drills and fixes below but right now just taking you through the shot. So you can't turn back late and deep enough, and when you step forward your front foot opens up into the plant so you end up in the front toes forward/open hip "horse stance".

At this point you're trying to smash through the shot with your hips in "in front" of the spine. Since you are LHBH you are telling your right hip to face the target, by going counterclockwise around your spine. This then makes it so your arm can't keep up and your upper arm gets pinned to your left/front pec, so you end up hugging yourself instead of maintaining a wide arm angle.

Finally this forward/in front push makes your upper shoulders/upper spine move forward past the plant foot. There is no weight on the opposite side of your spine to counter the shot, which would be the intended bracing method to keep everything around the spine. Instead everything is going counterclockwise to the right of your spine and you have to step through. Extreme examples of this type of error are when the shoulders get thrown past the front foot during the throw/at release...it's way more obvious to spot when people do it that way than what you are doing.

So these videos are tons of info but I'll try to simplify a few concepts to look for that will apply for you. Definitely ask for clarifications and don't try to understand it all at once haha

The Power of Posture video will show you the horse stance you are doing, and accentuate the upper shoulder lean thing that you are doing slightly...but enough that it is wrong. As well as keeping arm wide, countering with rear foot, transferring spine to the front leg to prepare for the throw...basically everything but the main thing is look at the horse stance and shoulders tipping.

One leg drill...well this one is very self correcting so you have to throw with the spine on the front leg. I want to put crush the can in there...it's on his channel as well...to show how to not tip over. But the thing is, if you can throw from the one leg drill and start transitioning to a standstill or one step throw then you get it.

The Door Frame Drill will show you how to turn into the rear hip and lead with the butt. You will turn back later and deeper into the plant. Make sure you focus on hanging from the door frame with the same pressure/muscles as it says in the video. There are 3 of them I think on this channel. But turning back late in the door frame drill will set you up for a wider reachback and getting that counterweight on the other side of the spine, then after you land it's essentially the one leg throw feeling.

 

[DarwinDave]

man oh man, the scary thing is i feel like my knees are inward and my plant foot lands closed. Not even close. Ok, will knock out a few of these drills on a daily basis and repost after a bit. Thank you!

 

[slowplastic]

man oh man, the scary thing is i feel like my knees are inward and my plant foot lands closed. Not even close. Ok, will knock out a few of these drills on a daily basis and repost after a bit. Thank you!

Remember it's not repetition of the drill that matters...it's doing it right/adjusting until something feels different and you understand the concept it is trying to teach you. Then incorporate it into a throwing motion.

 

[DarwinDave]

At a loss trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong concerning the back foot going behind instead of around. Any tips on how best to transfer that weight through instead of around? When done correctly, is the back foot naturally going behind the lead foot, or is it something you are forcing behind?

 

[sidewinder22]

At a loss trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong concerning the back foot going behind instead of around. Any tips on how best to transfer that weight through instead of around? When done correctly, is the back foot naturally going behind the lead foot, or is it something you are forcing behind?

I don't think your rear foot is really a problem other than your balance on it or being outside the rear foot, looks like you are leaning back over/away from target really trying to shift your weight back to the rear foot. Need to turn back balanced inside the rear foot so you are leveraged forward from the rear foot/instep. Your weight will shift back to the rear as you push forward leveraged/balanced dynamically. Weight shift happens via gravity, balance, and posture, it can't be forced.

You do need to plant more closed/turned back on the front foot/leg like in Door Frame Drill/Crush the Can. Your body/shoulder are barely turned back at all when you plant and you have no forward tilt/compression chest toward knees.

I'd recommend watching these several times and doing what his does, there's a gold mine of info that you can't take in all of it watching once and not going through the same motions:

 

[slowplastic]

At a loss trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong concerning the back foot going behind instead of around. Any tips on how best to transfer that weight through instead of around? When done correctly, is the back foot naturally going behind the lead foot, or is it something you are forcing behind?

I've had the same question in the past, and it is working out better for me now.

Essentially the rear foot will act as a counterweight going behind the spine, so that you have additional leverage to swing from, rather than just giving you more speed through the throw. While you will be aware this leverage is a goal, it will also naturally be how your balance directs your body and where the foot goes after it leaves the ground.

Shifting from behind, and turning into the rear hip really late will help have some mass on the other side of your spine. Leveraging your spine onto the front leg off the rear instep rather than pushing your rear hip targetward will also help with this. When you leverage your spine/mass the right way the foot will do this move after leaving the ground. Also you must be in balance through the X-step and at the plant...drifting at all to the sides will not allow this to happen.

Your rear foot looks like it has good direction right now, very good considering the slight things going on. Keep the feeling you have with that and adjust other things in the form. Some players get their rear foot to really get out there in behind, others are just a move targetwards and a bit diagonally closed and still throw real far. It's kind of a product rather than a goal.

 

[DarwinDave]

https://youtu.be/dmfcsS1j7Bw

First attempt at working on the closed stance

 

[slowplastic]

You are still slightly opening the foot as it is coming down, rather than slightly closing it. It's going to be somewhat of a positional/concept change to get this to happen.

This video below may help. To me it feels like I stride my lead foot over my crossed over rear foot sideways, then as my lead foot is halfway through the step and I keep turning back it's almost like I'm finishing the step backwards/behind my body. Since you are turning more closed, the feeling of stepping slightly backwards at the end of the plant will actually keep the foot in line with your target and momentum. If you keep stepping out to the side as your body is closed, then this will actually open your hip.

I realize it's hard to change your lower body and think of other things, but your upper arm is still a bit too pinned to your chest/pec and not wide enough.

 

[DarwinDave]

Ok so maybe a question on timing might help me feel this better. I was under the impression that if a line we're drawn through the shoulders and another through the waist, that they would stay pointed straight down the line of play all the way to the cross step, and then only the shoulders rotate backwards 90 degrees at the same time as the lead foot starts to go forward. The shoulders only hit that 90 degrees as the heel plants, giving the maximum amount of stretch for lack of better terminology, I guess... Also was under the impression that the imginary hip line of play stays pointed down the target line, only rotating back enough as to allow the shoulders to fully turn...

Is this thinking flawed?

 

[slowplastic]

That is incorrect. When you take the first shuffle step with your lead foot forward, and are sideways/parallel, your pelvis and shoulders will both be parallel with the throw line. The second crossing step, rear foot in behind, will start to turn your pelvis closed to the target...say roughly 20 degrees. Look at video to see this in the pro's, but go by feel rather than trying to be too mechanical. Now as you are taking the final step with the plant foot you will keep turning deeper into the rear hip, internally rotating the rear femur more and more closed and the shoulders will turn back farther and later still.

It's not about getting the shoulders or disc back crazy far, it's about feeling solid loading and I focus more on my rear hip than on the torso. You'll be turning the upper body back anyways just from repetition, and overdoing it leads to more problems than underdoing it for most people.

 

[slowplastic]

Just to add, I used to think about it that way also. Thinking you would get to max reachback and plant simultaneously, getting a crazy elastic band separation between shoulders wound back and hips landing and that would spring the shot forward. That's not the case. You just need a solid tension load up, transition your spine/balance onto the front leg, and get the disc moving toward the hit point with some weight on the other side of the spine ready to provide leverage to throw against. This will let you continue to unwind the arm and sling the disc through the hit point with mass to counter the throw/arm, rather than trying to just get really stretched out and hope you rocked forward at lightening speed.

 

[DarwinDave]

Ok thanks that clears things up a bit.

As for the arm hugging the body... Is trying too hard to keep the disc on a straight line maybe an issue? I've concentrated on that to great lengths, but it seems to me that I end up almost keeping the entire arm too stiff , like I'm trying to keep the upper arm on that same line of play instead of perhaps swinging the upper arm and elbow more around, and bending the elbow to get the disc on the LOP? How do you approach the body hugging arm issue? More trebuchet and less wet towel? (Not sure if that last part is going to make much sense..)

 

[slowplastic]

I'm not the best with arm plane stuff, I've fought through a few separate issues. I finally have a decently wide upper arm, my issue is more with the forearm going slightly up/off plane.

Anyways, what fixed it for me was again not focusing on max reachback. I was trying to get to full reachback extension, then "stay wide" at the shoulder while things rocketed forward. I couldn't stop the collapse entirely, because my hips were firing my torso forward real quick and no matter what I couldn't keep my shoulders along for the ride.

Once I started focusing on the hit point, out in front where the disc will actually be leveraged, things got fixed. I started to focus on how I would swing the disc through that point, and my arm would have to be in the correct/wide position in order to feel that.

I would suggest swinging a hammer/wrench/something heavy, somewhere safe obviously, and feel how you would leverage it through a wall or board. Anticipate that hit point and focus on getting extension through that point.

Once you start focusing on the hit point you won't worry about getting a crazy max reachback, and also your arm will anticipate where it needs to be in order to swing through the hit.

 

[deyo7]

Ok thanks that clears things up a bit.

As for the arm hugging the body... Is trying too hard to keep the disc on a straight line maybe an issue? I've concentrated on that to great lengths, but it seems to me that I end up almost keeping the entire arm too stiff , like I'm trying to keep the upper arm on that same line of play instead of perhaps swinging the upper arm and elbow more around, and bending the elbow to get the disc on the LOP? How do you approach the body hugging arm issue? More trebuchet and less wet towel? (Not sure if that last part is going to make much sense..)

I feel like the hugging issue can be resolved once the "from behind" you concept is nailed down because it allows you to get more "space" to keep upper arm wide as you will be more closed into the plant and won't be fighting as much counterproductive momentum.
Also having solid backswing is critical (don't turn until weight on back foot, power of posture so that braced on rear foot and inside swing drill).

Mo space:
Inside Swing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=7m15s

To my inexperienced eyes, I don't feel like you're too terribly far off. Just need to trust it that much more - don't worry about throwing the disc. Mo Trebuchet. Have to plant this way ---> to throw that way <--- sort of a thing.

Watch and do what Clement does in the best downswing weightshift video above in SW's post until you can hear Clement's voice saying, "from behind you." Once you fully trust it, it's a gamechanger.

Slowplastic also had a comment in another thread that was a total game changer for me: it was about leveraging the off arm forward. Because of his comments, I don't think about rotating anymore but instead getting off arm and whole rear / right side (if LHBH) forward. That also helped me to not shift my weight in front back in front after the plant.

Anyway, hope that helps.