Player putts from the wrong lie? What’s the penalty?

[twistedmangled]

So I saw this in a recent sanctioned tournament players on the card were putting out and the last 2 discs were both 5 feet from the basket but on opposite sides. Both putters were the same color one of the players walks up and putts from the wrong putter makes his putt and then Picks up the putter and realized he putted from the wrong putter. Everyone on the card sees what is happening. He replaces the putter that was not his to its original lie. Goes to his lie and putts again making the putt. This obviously is a problem and some penalty must be applied to the individual for the mistake. But what is the penalty or penalties? This caused a bit of a stir as the scores were close and it was the lead card of a MA40 group. TD was unclear how to handle lots of folks had opinions people called people and all sorts of stuff. Finally the player was assessed 2 strokes for the mistake with no real explanation as to what was exactly violated. Does anybody know how this should have been handled and what rules apply to this situation?

 

[Smigles]

I think if he corrected the mistake before playing further throws, it is only 1 penalty point.

811.F

If no subsequent throws have been made after the misplayed throw, that throw is disregarded. The player plays from the correct lie and receives one penalty throw for the misplay. If an additional throw has been made after the misplayed throw, the player continues play and receives two penalty throws for the misplay.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/811

funny thing, we had three occurances of misplay at this weekends event, too. Even happened to me -.- first time in 10 years haha.

 

[JC17393]

So I saw this in a recent sanctioned tournament players on the card were putting out and the last 2 discs were both 5 feet from the basket but on opposite sides. Both putters were the same color one of the players walks up and putts from the wrong putter makes his putt and then Picks up the putter and realized he putted from the wrong putter. Everyone on the card sees what is happening. He replaces the putter that was not his to its original lie. Goes to his lie and putts again making the putt. This obviously is a problem and some penalty must be applied to the individual for the mistake. But what is the penalty or penalties? This caused a bit of a stir as the scores were close and it was the lead card of a MA40 group. TD was unclear how to handle lots of folks had opinions people called people and all sorts of stuff. Finally the player was assessed 2 strokes for the mistake with no real explanation as to what was exactly violated. Does anybody know how this should have been handled and what rules apply to this situation?

PDGA sanctioned, the TD didn't know how to proceed, and he didn't think to just look up the rule in the book? Shameful. As Smigles points out, the rule is clearly labeled "Misplay" and is pretty clear about the penalties involved. There's no excuse for the TD not finding the rule.

The player did exactly what he was supposed to do. Since he caught the error immediately and went to the correct lie, the erroneous throw should have been disregarded and he should have been assessed a one throw penalty for the misplay. Hope the incorrect ruling and penalty didn't cost the player anything.

 

[cheesethin]

...the erroneous throw should have been disregarded and he should have been assessed a one throw penalty for the misplay...

Just for my own clarity, the player would still count the stroke for the throw they made from the wrong lie, AND they would add one penalty stroke, AND then they would count however many throws it takes them from the correct lie. Is this correct?


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[JC17393]

Just for my own clarity, the player would still count the stroke for the throw they made from the wrong lie, AND they would add one penalty stroke, AND then they would count however many throws it takes them from the correct lie. Is this correct?


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No, the throw from the wrong lie is not counted. See the rule that Smigles quoted above (811.F): "If no subsequent throws have been made after the misplayed throw, that throw is disregarded."

The player's score would be all throws made from correct lies plus the one throw penalty for the misplay.

 

[twistedmangled]

Just to clarify the TD did look it up and assessed the single stroke penalty. But there was a guy on the card that kept pushing him saying they thought there was another violation for moving the other players lie. Luckily even with the 2 strokes it did not change where he finished in the tournament.

 

[cheesethin]

No, the throw from the wrong lie is not counted. See the rule that Smigles quoted above (811.F): "If no subsequent throws have been made after the misplayed throw, that throw is disregarded."

Ah, well that is interesting.

Because if you make an additional throw after the misplay throw, "the player continues play and receives two penalty throws for the misplay." In this case I assume that you DO count the strokes for the misplayed throw AND the additional throw AND add two penalty strokes.

This means the two scenarios (one misplay throw Vs two misplay throws) are out of balance.

If you catch yourself after one misplay throw, your score increases by only 1. But if you catch yourself after a misplay throw and an additional throw, your score increases by 4. IE you are being punished at twice as hard.

I always assumed that the single misplay throw was analogous to the abandoned throw rule, where you count a stroke for the abandoned throw AND add a penalty stroke.

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[JC17393]

Ah, well that is interesting.

Because if you make an additional throw after the misplay throw, "the player continues play and receives two penalty throws for the misplay." In this case I assume that you DO count the strokes for the misplayed throw AND the additional throw AND add two penalty strokes.

This means the two scenarios (one misplay throw Vs two misplay throws) are out of balance.

If you catch yourself after one misplay throw, your score increases by only 1. But if you catch yourself after a misplay throw and an additional throw, your score increases by 4. IE you are being punished at twice as hard.

I always assumed that the single misplay throw was analogous to the abandoned throw rule, where you count a stroke for the abandoned throw AND add a penalty stroke.

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The single misplay throw is analogous to a practice throw...a throw that does not change the player's lie.

Playing subsequent throws after a misplay assumes that the misplay was not caught until well after it occurred, likely after the round is over. The penalty for it is consistent for a variety of different types of misplay discovered well after the fact, as well as the penalty for an incorrect scorecard which can only be assessed after the round has been completed.

 

[cheesethin]

...If you catch yourself after one misplay throw, your score increases by only 1. But if you catch yourself after a misplay throw and an additional throw, your score increases by 4. IE you are being punished at twice as hard...

I've caught the flaw in my own argument. In the bolded bit, I failed to account for the fact that you still have to putt out, which would be another stroke. This balances out the 'punishment regimes' in the 1 misplay throw Vs 2 misplay throws scenarios.

And yes, you're right, this makes it analogous to a practice throw rather than an abandoned throw.

Side question, why does an abandoned throw cost you two strokes (the abandoned throw plus penalty) and not just one? Because we don't want people doing it too often?


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[Putt for D'oh]

Just to clarify the TD did look it up and assessed the single stroke penalty. But there was a guy on the card that kept pushing him saying they thought there was another violation for moving the other players lie. Luckily even with the 2 strokes it did not change where he finished in the tournament.

Seems like either way, 2 strokes is the wrong call.

In the end the other players disc/marker was replaced and basically it was a complicated way of picking it up for identification purposes so should not have had a penalty.

IF someone were to make a stink that, that wasn't the case but I believe it would fall under that, then its 2 strokes for interference with a disc that came to rest, for a total of 3.

 

[cheesethin]

...But there was a guy on the card that kept pushing him saying they thought there was another violation for moving the other players lie...

810 Interference
E. A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws:

1. Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury); or,

2. Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H).

I think the bolded bit means that you couldn't stroke the player for interference as well as the misplay.





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