• Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
    It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)

Tilted Axes, Spirals, and Dynamic Balance

Cross-reference:

Synthesizing a few posture and balance points in the X-step. I just realized I can probably describe better why Figure 8, buttwipe, tilted balance all work together in X-step transition moves so note to self to clean it up later. Thanks yet again @sidewinder22 for the form point, little insights coming in bursts again for me.

 
I think it has more to do with where you are directing force(form) than the wobble itself causing it to turn.
ok I've done more thinking on this, and some experimentation with the Tech Disc simulator. My problem with verifying my theory on higher wobble making for less "stable" flights is that I can't prove it in real life. I produce a fairly consistent 4-8 "degrees of wobble" on most throws, and I can't just minimize it and otherwise keep the flights the same. So that's why I went with simulated testing.

What I've done is take existing throws, increase the wobble, check output, then decrease it the other way, and check output again. I eventually ended up playing around and creating more idealized throws, and ran the same tests. Pretty consistently more wobble makes the disc turn more in flight. Less wobble similarly consistently reduces any turn of the disc. I've been playing around for quite a while now and so far I have yet to increase wobble to produce a more "stable" result. I'm not saying it's impossible, or the simulator is the final word here. But I do believe it backs up my impressions from real world throws.

I do not think it's dramatic, but I think it's noticeable. A typical 50mph throw with 800 spin, and the rest of the variables leading to a 270' throw (or so) might only see a difference of 10 feet if you go from 5.6 wobble (272') to 1.6 wobble (261') in a typical example, or a few up to 10.6 (275'). This is just one example, but it's typical of what I'm seeing through testing. Doesn't matter if the release is hyzer or anhyzer. The effect is very much the same. Though with hyzer throws the difference in wobble degrees seems to have a more significant impact.

Again, I'm no authority, but my anecdotal experience with real world throws and simulated ones seem to bear this out. And what I've learned so far has made me slightly less worried about the modest wobble in my form. 🙂
 
Unless they have done an update more recently, I don't think that's right. Michael told me that the simulator ignores wobble.

I would expect, if they had found a way to simulate the effect of wobble, that they'd also make it an adjustable input in the simulator like the other metrics.
 
Unless they have done an update more recently, I don't think that's right. Michael told me that the simulator ignores wobble.

I would expect, if they had found a way to simulate the effect of wobble, that they'd also make it an adjustable input in the simulator like the other metrics.
Hmm, scratch that, it looks as though they have added wobble to the simulation. I wonder what data they used to create that addition.
 
Hmm, scratch that, it looks as though they have added wobble to the simulation. I wonder what data they used to create that addition.
Yeah I never even thought to play with that metric before. I don't know anything more than what the - or + button do at this point. More wobble is extremely consistently resulting in more turn and a more rightward flight path for my rhbh throws. I've yet to see an example otherwise in my testing.
 
That would be my expectation of what wobble would do too, so in that sense i agree with the simulation. But I'd love to know if they have good data to back it up, or if they're just going with the received wisdom.
 
The sim seems to show the wobble affecting lift which makes sense as the disc nose will nod up/down so it's not steady in positive lift or steady precession. The lower AoA of the wobble flight will create more turn relative to the higher trajectories of lower wobble flights, but this would also be true without wobble. If we could match the trajectory or AoA while varying the wobble I think we would see less turn with more wobble.
Screen Shot 2024-05-07 at 12.01.32 PM.png
 
Interestingly the sim has negative wobble and positive wobble. The Green is -10 and the pink is +10 wobble, blue is 0. I had theorized before that rolling under or over creates different wobble and flight, so that the nose was either nodding more up or down.

Screen Shot 2024-05-07 at 12.55.20 PM.png
 
It seems weird to me that the sign of the initial wobble angle should cause different flight. Wobble is measured by the angle of the disc relative to the disc's local rotational axis. It only makes sense as a measure at the point of the release. As the disc rotates, or wobbles, it will move through both negative and positive angles, i.e. it's symmetric.

It's a pity that TechDisc don't release any documentation on how they model this stuff, it makes it hard to trust when we don't know the underlying model or the data they use. It seems they are moving more in the direction of DiscGolfValley than a true simulator. It also makes it harder to make informed decisions on improving your game based on the data coming out of it.
 
I'm glad you said that, i was starting to think i was going mad when everyone was talking about negative wobble.

I suppose you could try to argue that whether the very first part of the disc to hit the air after release was wobbling above the 'average' AoA or below it might have some tiny impact on the flight. I would think that's sufficiently transient to not matter, but perhaps they argue that it does matter (i suppose that is the moment of maximum airspeed, but still... Not convinced).

Also - has anyone actually thrown with 'negative' wobble, according to the techdisc output, or is it only something you can get by adjusting the sim? If the latter, then I'd be even further convinced it's a nonsense variable.
 
Dude, you should see my throws now that I'm putting a whole bunch of negative wobble on them. Unbelievable. It's like a wormhole for the disc. There's probably a stack of discs sitting on top of the black cube on Saturn now.
 
This is just musing as usual: I don't know if this will actually help another human since like I say here I only intellectually "got it" after my body started to do it, which is always interesting.

CoM rather than real mass stuff is understandably confusing to a lot of people but I had a rare "ah ha!" after a recent tweak from Sidewinder. Think about how the axes of rotation relate to the movement of the body's CoM. It's a complex process as the axis is "precessing" around and redirecting as the feet interact with the ground relative to the posture. A lot of the sources of power from torque across the body in GG probably come from this - parts of my body started to "coil up" differently right away (in a good way). Suddenly my brain is starting to understand how I can direct and redirect my entire body mass and tweak things relative to that rather than just the parts. Net effort in the move is dropping yet again to a new all time low (how low can you go?).


Exercise: See if you can pick out what we're saying in words in GG's motion. Head-on view helps you see some of the Eastward motion of his CoG in the "prep step" - hint: watch how his mAss redirects from diagonally down the line to almost directly toward the camera.

4f9de392c80032775c57ccb12cb72824.gif


Now compare and contrast to a couple other crushers. Watch GG "toss" his entire CoM East out of the prep step relative to his initial direction and how it redirects back into the plant to get an enormous whip effect even compared to Simon or Eagle:
22e0ef44178168c083f675748ea4b88e.gif

125763b9a18cfcc8121d23d757bc7ec3.gif



Takeaway Lesson: perhaps instructive for anyone, but especially if you're shaped like me or this guy, maybe a Water Buffalo throw is for you.
mud-slinging-cape-buffalo-csilla-florida.jpg


Wow, that's a lot of mAss and not a lot of levers! What can we do?
lotr-funny.gif


CoM says:
tumblr_m7qahjQS5e1r0wb4wo3_250.gif


I'm clearly slightly delirious. Happy Wednesday!
 
Last edited:
This is just musing as usual: I don't know if this will actually help another human since like I say here I only intellectually "got it" after my body started to do it, which is always interesting.

CoM rather than real mass stuff is understandably confusing to a lot of people but I had a rare "ah ha!" after a recent tweak from Sidewinder. Think about how the axes of rotation relate to the movement of the body's CoM. It's a complex process as the axis is "precessing" around and redirecting as the feet interact with the ground relative to the posture. A lot of the sources of power from torque across the body in GG probably come from this - parts of my body started to "coil up" differently right away (in a good way). Suddenly my brain is starting to understand how I can direct and redirect my entire body mass and tweak things relative to that rather than just the parts. Net effort in the move is dropping yet again to a new all time low (how low can you go?).


To my way of learning, there is some gestalt where I'm trying to arrive, so too much focus on the parts can get in the way. There was something big missing, I knew, that had to do with pace. I'm not pushing this guys videos, not criticizing in any way, but mention because it helped me make a fundamental change regarding compression and pause and weight shift timing.



Something about this lets me focus on balance and getting the coil loaded over the drive leg, and the toe of the brace is like what? Very light, like the leg of a tripod that is only supporting a little of the weight—before the shift and throw.
 
To my way of learning, there is some gestalt where I'm trying to arrive, so too much focus on the parts can get in the way. There was something big missing, I knew, that had to do with pace. I'm not pushing this guys videos, not criticizing in any way, but mention because it helped me make a fundamental change regarding compression and pause and weight shift timing.



Something about this lets me focus on balance and getting the coil loaded over the drive leg, and the toe of the brace is like what? Very light, like the leg of a tripod that is only supporting a little of the weight—before the shift and throw.


I think if I've learned anything, people learn good things in various ways from various people. I have benefitted from exaggerations or phrases or motions from other people even if I've moved on to other things myself.

Since I have developed a persona of being a "form academic" at this point, I just want to point out that Treb & Sidewinder have actually at least two opposite concepts when talking about this Treb video specifically. I'll always continue to add disclaimers like "FWIW, IMHO, my half penny" etc. since I'm after all just one other person on the internet.

1. Treb tends to think the rear leg is an axis of rotation, wereas Sidewinder thinks it is the front.
2. Treb tends to (in this video) think the front leg should be a "long leg" and rear leg should be a "short leg," SW points out in many cases in advanced movement the move over the rear leg is actually quite long either horizontally or vertically (or in between, and also West-East), and the plant stride is relatively short and "stacks" the axis of rotation more over the front leg (which is more dynamic than that as we've talked about around here).



Other notable differences in that Treb talks about containment, whereas SW tends to talk about stop of trajectoryward momentum. The latter is also consistent with how Merela tends to talk about it. Josh, Taylor, and so on tend to use stop concepts. Relatively few people use balance and CoM concepts like Sidewinder does. I have spoken with coaches who say they don't know what those concepts mean or why they are relevant to coaching (which are potentially two different things), so that also gives a sense for the "in the wild" differences in emphasis, opinions, and conceptualizations.

It helped me to watch for this explicitly in advanced form for how pros hide "sneaky long" moves over the rear leg relative to shorter and more abrupt strides into the plant leg. If you take a slightly different perspective on the same problem, the stride width can appear very similar, but the motion of the CoM toward the target is much bigger toward the target over the rear leg, whereas the forward momentum is mostly stopped and imaginary CoM swings around the plant leg (precession). The West-East motion of the body relative to the legs in transition in the X-step is a major clue as to how the move works.



Watching in multiple views can help you see how the "length" of the X-step stride/rear leg is not just down the tee because it involves motion in vertical, horizontal, and West-East axes in advanced movement.

Exaggerating different parts at different times in different people is part of the coaching game, which is part of why confusion ensues.

Exercise: How "long" is each stride?
125763b9a18cfcc8121d23d757bc7ec3.gif


Exercise: Does perception changed when you can see more of the West-East part of the motion from rear view?
22e0ef44178168c083f675748ea4b88e.gif


Exercise: what about head-on?
4f9de392c80032775c57ccb12cb72824.gif

oRkdEF.gif
 
Last edited:
Something about this lets me focus on balance and getting the coil loaded over the drive leg, and the toe of the brace is like what? Very light, like the leg of a tripod that is only supporting a little of the weight—before the shift and throw.
This part also just triggered a memory SW shared with me a while ago. My "toe lead" still sucks and I tend to air on the side of flat-footed, but working on this has helped:

 
I'm definitely building new muscle and muscle memory as I go, but from the first times I filmed myself I recognize a primary issue is starting to uncoil before establishing brace. I don't watch Trebuchet enough to characterize his methods or contrast those with any other coach. I do recognize some of my chronic issues though.

Initially I was feeling some pressure into the brace as I was reaching max coil, so the off shoulder would push the brace into the ground. This works If I'm just bouncing around, feeling things. But it's not really a useful throw thought. My question was related to timing, and how to reach max coil after the brace was down. The short leg idea feels kinda like a rolling stop over the drive leg, and my body resists doing this, likely because of muscle weakness.

The pros seem to have a much more fluid throw, obv. I'm just using this thought to create a mental sequence and slow myself down so I can drill the sequence into muscle memory. It's super easy for my mass to get out in front of my brace.

Having control and balance over drive leg via this thought seems to work as I've added 30-40ft onto a drive pretty quickly. It's the only time in four years I've seen a dramatic result like this, but it's all part of keeping my mass centered.
 
I'm definitely building new muscle and muscle memory as I go, but from the first times I filmed myself I recognize a primary issue is starting to uncoil before establishing brace. I don't watch Trebuchet enough to characterize his methods or contrast those with any other coach. I do recognize some of my chronic issues though.

Initially I was feeling some pressure into the brace as I was reaching max coil, so the off shoulder would push the brace into the ground. This works If I'm just bouncing around, feeling things. But it's not really a useful throw thought. My question was related to timing, and how to reach max coil after the brace was down. The short leg idea feels kinda like a rolling stop over the drive leg, and my body resists doing this, likely because of muscle weakness.

The pros seem to have a much more fluid throw, obv. I'm just using this thought to create a mental sequence and slow myself down so I can drill the sequence into muscle memory. It's super easy for my mass to get out in front of my brace.

Having control and balance over drive leg via this thought seems to work as I've added 30-40ft onto a drive pretty quickly. It's the only time in four years I've seen a dramatic result like this, but it's all part of keeping my mass centered.
Yeah I think all this tinkering can help. The relationship of the coil & the stride off the rear foot & plant has so many challenges I still find it amazing people figure it out at all. You have to have "good enough" stuff going on in so many parts of the body & your posture and balance.

It's also clear to me from talking to people that in this space of concepts your talking about there are still little disagreements about the "optimal" relationship of the peak of the backswing and details of the plant interacting with the ground, for instance. I've personally tended to have more success with the backswing/"pulled taut" dynamic and door-frame style mass shifting, but I also know some people think about it slightly differently. I also think that even though my "toe lead" and athleticism on my feet in general is pretty weaksauce compared to tour crushers, just a little bit recently started to go a long way for me.

I've probably learned just as much about the coil and its relationship to the shift comparing and contrasting things as I have doing any one thing in particular. Exploring is super important. I still find little advantages that surprise me every time I change a thing. Always weird, always interesting.
 
I'm glad you said that, i was starting to think i was going mad when everyone was talking about negative wobble.

I suppose you could try to argue that whether the very first part of the disc to hit the air after release was wobbling above the 'average' AoA or below it might have some tiny impact on the flight. I would think that's sufficiently transient to not matter, but perhaps they argue that it does matter (i suppose that is the moment of maximum airspeed, but still... Not convinced).

Also - has anyone actually thrown with 'negative' wobble, according to the techdisc output, or is it only something you can get by adjusting the sim? If the latter, then I'd be even further convinced it's a nonsense variable.
I can't say for sure how you get negative wobble, but here is what Michael Sizemore from Tech Disc messaged me when I asked about wobble a few months ago:

"Wobble is off axis torque, measured as the half angle of the cone that is traced out by the center axis of the disc. A disc that spins perfectly on its axis will have 0 wobble, the central axis will stay perfectly steady. If the disc wobbles then the central axis will trace out a cone as it wobbles. Larger wobble equals a larger cone angle."

I don't know how to release a disc in such a way as you'd get an inverse of the wobble effect, but maybe there's some information in here that might help others determine that. If it's even possible.
 
It seems weird to me that the sign of the initial wobble angle should cause different flight. Wobble is measured by the angle of the disc relative to the disc's local rotational axis. It only makes sense as a measure at the point of the release. As the disc rotates, or wobbles, it will move through both negative and positive angles, i.e. it's symmetric.

It's a pity that TechDisc don't release any documentation on how they model this stuff, it makes it hard to trust when we don't know the underlying model or the data they use. It seems they are moving more in the direction of DiscGolfValley than a true simulator. It also makes it harder to make informed decisions on improving your game based on the data coming out of it.
I would think the wobble sign would denote a positive or negative rotation axis no? i.e. clockwise as opposed to counter-clockwise precession. In that case the underside / topside of the disc would be exposed from a different side of the disc so to speak as viewed from the front while wobbling. It's still not entirely clear to me how that exactly breaks the flight symmetry however.
 
Top