Is there a limit to "Helping to find a lost disc"?

[krupicka]

Eveliina is on the teebox at 39:00 and you can see her disc splash in the water at 39:20.
The announcers say that the creek is marked as casual and that the disc probably floated away, but since the spotter spotted where it went in she is able to get "casual relief" from that spot and it is not considered a lost disc.

805.01.A A thrown disc establishes a position where it first comes to rest.
805.01.B A thrown disc is considered to be at rest when it first stops moving. A disc in water or foliage is considered to be at rest when it is moving only as a result of movement of the water, the foliage, or the wind.

The rationale here was since the spotter knew where the disc came to rest, that is the disc's position regardless of the fact that it then floated away.

 

[glassila]

805.01.A A thrown disc establishes a position where it first comes to rest.
805.01.B A thrown disc is considered to be at rest when it first stops moving. A disc in water or foliage is considered to be at rest when it is moving only as a result of movement of the water, the foliage, or the wind.

The rationale here was since the spotter knew where the disc came to rest, that is the disc's position regardless of the fact that it then floated away.

I would say the spotter knew approximately where the disc crossed into the casual area, but not precisely where it landed.
So why isn't that criteria used for all casual water situations!?

If the players know a disc landed in a casual area and they know approximately where it entered into the casual area - why does the disc need to be found???

 

[biscoe]

I would say the spotter knew approximately where the disc crossed into the casual area, but not precisely where it landed.
So why isn't that criteria used for all casual water situations!?

If the players know a disc landed in a casual area and they know approximately where it entered into the casual area - why does the disc need to be found???

If the spotter did not know where the disc landed then they should not have played it as if he did. On the other hand if a group can come to consensus that a disc landed in a certain spot then imo they can play it as such. (This is what happens with the spotter- it is still the group's call.) If all the group can come to consensus on is that "it's in there somewhere" then they have no appropriate place to place the lie which in a casual relief situation needs to be taken back along the line of play from the landing spot.

Would it all work as well/better if all casual water were treated as an optional Relief Area? Quite possibly.

 

[krupicka]

Would it all work as well/better if all casual water were treated as an optional Relief Area? Quite possibly.

I'm running an event at Northwoods this weekend. If those creeks are still rapids, I'll probably make them a Relief Area. N.B. For others following relief areas under the current rules are not optional. (806.04).

 

[glassila]

If the spotter did not know where the disc landed then they should not have played it as if he did. On the other hand if a group can come to consensus that a disc landed in a certain spot then imo they can play it as such. (This is what happens with the spotter- it is still the group's call.) If all the group can come to consensus on is that "it's in there somewhere" then they have no appropriate place to place the lie which in a casual relief situation needs to be taken back along the line of play from the landing spot.

Would it all work as well/better if all casual water were treated as an optional Relief Area? Quite possibly

I'm running an event at Northwoods this weekend. If those creeks are still rapids, I'll probably make them a Relief Area. N.B. For others following relief areas under the current rules are not optional. (806.04).

Please explain what you mean in the bold text?

 

[biscoe]

Please explain what you mean in the bold text?

A Relief Area is an area that plays exactly like OB but with no penalty. Therefore a lie can be assigned based on where a disc entered it and the specific location of the disc does not matter given that it is known to be in that area. Since it plays just like OB the Relief Area also trumps lost disc. Relief from casual areas requires knowledge of the specific lie as that relief comes back along the line of play from said lie. Casual area also does not trump lost disc so a disc in casual water that cannot be specifically seen should be played as lost. Whether or not a spotter specifying "it is there" constitutes knowledge of the location is subject to a different debate.

 

[biscoe]

I'm running an event at Northwoods this weekend. If those creeks are still rapids, I'll probably make them a Relief Area. N.B. For others following relief areas under the current rules are not optional. (806.04).

Right- I was speaking hypothetically at that point, not offering it as a current option. The only reason I think optional may be better is then you would have the chance to get your feet wet and play it if you wanted to as with casual water now.

 

[krupicka]

Right- I was speaking hypothetically at that point, not offering it as a current option. The only reason I think optional may be better is then you would have the chance to get your feet wet and play it if you wanted to as with casual water now.

Just wanted to make sure people noted the difference between what is and what could be.

Here's what I currently put in the course rules for this weekend:
Hole 17: Left or long of the white stakes is OB. Optional DZ may be used for lost discs or throws that go OB.
That at least takes care of the distance portion of lost discs on that hole, but not the stroke. If there are rapids still (and based on the rain tonight, very likely) I'll probably amend it again to deal with it in a sane way. Usually when I'm out there that creek is barely a a trickle.

 

[roblee]

A thought: Simplify by having Mandatory Relief areas/objects and Optional Relief areas/objects. These areas must be defined so you can't just call relief for a disc lost in any tall weeds or leaves. Determine lie & line of play same as OB. Eliminate Casual. All rules can be abused. "Casual water" (temporary, irregular, unplanned) makes sense but we use it for permanent things too so there may be a better way to say this. Is casual part of golf terminology ? We are losing the "casual" vibe of competitions with the $ involved so let's dump the word from the Rule Book.

 

[krupicka]

The one thing that is also relevant is the difference between still water and moving water. In the still water case, if you are looking for a disc someplace and you can't find it, you must be looking in the wrong place, so that can't be where the disc is. In the moving water case, you aren't going to find it where it came came to rest as the water moved it somewhere else.

This is essentially the other part of the video from Champs Cup above:
810.A If a thrown disc has moved after having come to rest on the in-bounds playing surface, it is replaced to where it first came to rest, as agreed on by the group. A thrown disc that has come to rest elsewhere does not need to be replaced, and its position is based on where it first came to rest, as agreed on by the group.

 

[glassila]

It seems to me that the main reason for the Casual area rule is to keep players from having to walk into water to play their shot, however with a lot of casual water it can be impossible to find the disc within 3 minutes without walking into the water.

I thought the Relief area rule is there so courses/Parks can protect fragile areas & plants?

 

[biscoe]

Original motivations for rules existing are sometimes murky and generally irrelevant. The rule book is the rule book at any given time. Relief Areas can be there to protect the area but also to protect players from attempting to throw from areas with sketchy footing, etc.. I tend to opt for Relief Area as opposed to OB when the chance of landing there is somewhat random (gully surrounded by trees in the case upthread).