Tech disc test driven development

[Brychanus]

In the Jesper clip, I don't see anything strange or surprising with the wing, it just looks like common supination + a shifting perspective from the rotation.

Admittedly a little hard to see at that angle but recall the GG example with some deflection/torque in the disc as it interacts with the hand.

 

[Mocheez]

Sheep said something like "The game gets more fun when you start flying the discs rather than throwing them."

And I think that statement is worth some thought.

I use that thought when putting around obstacles… let the frisbee glide into the basket.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Sheep said something like "The game gets more fun when you start flying the discs rather than throwing them."

Can you talk a bit about what flying in that sentence means for you? I have seen this a couple of times now, but I cant make out what flying the disc is supposed to mean. I think of an airbounce when hearing that term. I also like viewing it as throwing as the best ones feel like I am tossing a stone or a heavy ball. Even, or especially, when putting.

I use that thought when putting around obstacles… let the frisbee glide into the basket.

Matt Bell explained in a podcast how he doesnt practice putting by putting at a basket. He practices to land the disc in a certain spot. Whenever there is no direct line to the basket that thought helps a lot with precision because you cant just chuck it but rather have to guide it to its destination.

 

[Eric_T]

Thanks for all your input here, Eric, it's hugely valuable.

Do you have any thoughts on the classic 'why do beat-in discs turn more' question? I'm guessing you're better placed than most of us to understand all that.

Lots of people seem convinced that the disc gets bent downwards on impact with things, and this lowers the PLH. This seems wildly unlikely to me - surely the disc gets bent in random directions each time it hits something. Often a single dent will both raise AND lower the rim at that specific point of impact!

I see the solution as more to do with turbulence at the rim, as the spinning, dented disc means that the nose is effectively oscillating wildly, albeit over only a millimetre or so. I find it interesting that a wobbling disc (with it's oscillating rim) also gets more turn. But i haven't got anything like your level of fluid dynamics knowledge to back that up.

Any thoughts?

This is a very interesting question, and one I really want to study more in detail. Disc golf is really unique here, I think, in that the projectile we use wears over time and that this is a beneficial effect.

I believe it's a combined effect of many separate factors. The idea that the PLH is lowered actually seems reasonable to me. Since the overall shape of the flight plate typically has some dome, it makes sense that a direct hit will push the PLH downwards most of the time. And we can already demonstrate in the simulations that this would make the disc more understable. Similarly, shaving off some of the rim bottom will also make the PLH lower (which is why beads are used to mitigate this effect), so that's clearly a contributor.

The effect of roughness, though, seems poorly understood at the moment. Maybe it could lead to an effect as I've tried to illustrate below. If the roughness introduces enough instability to make the flow near the disc turbulent, you may reduce the size of the wake underneath the flight plate. This is somewhat what some older disc designs have tried to do, with textured/dimpled rims (Latitude Missilen, Quest AT Scream DT etc). What's interesting, though, is that this is a phenomenon that depends a lot on the velocity, so the behavior could change during the flight. This might be why people say that a beat-in disc keeps its low-speed stability but loses some of its high-speed stability. It's at least a hypothesis I think is worth testing out and getting some quantitative data on. I have most of the stuff ready to test this, so hopefully I will have some data soon. Would be happy to hear some other thought on this as well!

 

[SocraDeez]

Matt Bell mention: I swear he tosses/spins the disc in his hand as part of his routine when stepping up to/lining up a putt. He's definitely an expert Frisbee fidgeter. Somebody's got a clip. New advice tactic: what can putting grip teach us about driving grip?

 

[HyzerRoc]

Matt Bell mention: I swear he tosses/spins the disc in his hand as part of his routine when stepping up to/lining up a putt. He's definitely an expert Frisbee fidgeter. Somebody's got a clip. New advice tactic: what can putting grip teach us about driving grip?

Thats a weird question that might bring up some interesting points. With putting grips a lot of time is spent finding a good pivot point when you use finger action, while in this thread that didnt really come into consideration so far (if I didnt miss anything). The pivot point of a putt can also change on your desired nose angle, length of fingers and depth of the putter. Short fingers cannot reach the middle of a deep putter. Might also be why FPO goes more towards shallow putters like a Pure while MPO mostly uses variations of a KC Pro Aviar. The disc has a higher nose angle when loading the grip towards the nose of the disc while it goes down when loading it further back. You can also mess with the pressure for a bit, but cant really focus on it too much as that will result in the finger spring not happening.

 

[Brychanus]

Matt Bell mention: I swear he tosses/spins the disc in his hand as part of his routine when stepping up to/lining up a putt. He's definitely an expert Frisbee fidgeter. Somebody's got a clip. New advice tactic: what can putting grip teach us about driving grip?

On theme here and with the renewed interest in grips:

I was playing long toss ultimate Frisbee with my brother in law the other day. There was one way to throw it that caused rollovers. There was another that would make it to him no matter the distance.

Why did the thing that works with my putters and drivers work on the Ultimate long toss, and why did it work even better when I threw like a Wiggins standstill?

 

[itlnstln]

On theme here and with the renewed interest in grips:

I was playing long toss ultimate Frisbee with my brother in law the other day. There was one way to throw it that caused rollovers. There was another that would make it to him no matter the distance.

Why did the thing that works with my putters and drivers work on the Ultimate long toss, and why did it work even better when I threw like a Wiggins standstill?

Probably why Michael Johansen always throws with a fan grip. Seems like a skill older disc golfers carried over from ultimate and freestyle, especially when golf discs were generally slower and less overstable (the era of things like the Aero, Comet, Magnet, etc.). Seems like that style of grip is coming back with discs like the Glitch and Spore being introduced.

There was Jomez Practice Round awhile back where Cole Redalen made an off-hand comment that he always throws his putters with an MJ-style fan grip

 

[itlnstln]

Probably why Michael Johansen always throws with a fan grip. Seems like a skill older disc golfers carried over from ultimate and freestyle, especially when golf discs were generally slower and less overstable (the era of things like the Aero, Comet, Magnet, etc.). Seems like that style of grip is coming back with discs like the Glitch and Spore being introduced.

There was Jomez Practice Round awhile back where Cole Redalen made an off-hand comment that he always throws his putters with an MJ-style fan grip

If I were to expound on this slightly, a fan grip (or even DFP) will move the pivot closer to the center of the disc reducing potential OAT in the disc at release. If the pivot were closer to the edge like with a power or Climo grip, all the gravity on the mass opposite the pivot point would pull down on the disc while it's pivoting forward, increasing the potential for OAT (and wobble, and "throwlers"), especially with putters and mids.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, your pivot point with a wide-rim driver will be closer to the center simply due to the rim being wide. Your ability to control the entire mass of the disc is improved even with a power grip

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I cannot comfortably (or seemingly effectively either) go past the P2 spot with a two finger grip. It feels horrible to me so I have never tried it but I imagine its pure nose up with the way my hands work.

I tried F1P2 and it was surprisingly mostly nose neutral for me. Did like 8 throws no pour and only 4 with pour because I already threw a lot and also didn't disliked the feel in the hand the most, lol. Had to drop the pinky tho it couldn't really reach.

Oh and you quoted me saying P-2 (negative 2) but then you mentioned positive 2, not sure if you misread.

I haven't tested 2 or 3 fingers at the -2 position yet.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

On theme here and with the renewed interest in grips:

I was playing long toss ultimate Frisbee with my brother in law the other day. There was one way to throw it that caused rollovers. There was another that would make it to him no matter the distance.

Why did the thing that works with my putters and drivers work on the Ultimate long toss, and why did it work even better when I threw like a Wiggins standstill?

Do you have an ultra slow mo of this gif?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Neil: you've missed the point. No prescription was written for palm placement.

Here's a corollary: anybody who has spent time around really good Frisbee players has also surely observed how much they seem to love holding, handling, flipping, spinning, tossing, or playing with a disc in hand. Hand a Frisbee to a beginner, they're liable to clutch it like pearls. Hand a Frisbee to an expert, they're liable to spin it or flip it as soon as touch it. There's deeper meaning here, Neil, but I can't neatly diagram it for you.

I didn't miss that point. I was just adding more thoughts about the two do not do maxim comments.

Me testing out all these different grips is not so different than what you described here and in your educational exercise. It's another form of an educational exercise and the drive to do it comes from a similar place of playful curiosity, the fun of learning how to wield the disc or some implement in different ways and the making discoveries. I just also happen to enjoy being systematic as well and wish we had a common language like tennis grip names. Most tennis players that practice to improve can tell you all the grip names and what they are useful for and their downsides. But on disc golf the more grip info I consume the more confusing it becomes most of the time.

 

[Brychanus]

Do you have an ultra slow mo of this gif?

That standstill is already somewhat slowed down from about 1:34 here. Good to watch it in real time too.



I can probably slow it down more on my desktop.


A few angles here including slow motion. Watch the first throw for the similar complex interaction between disc and hand. There is visible torque on disc coming into and out of release. In contrast, GG and Jesper had torque coming into the release but (appear to be) low wobble when they come out. Puzzle: what's different about their whip cracks? What's the same?



Wiggins is a good example of someone who uses out-in-out pattern that becomes very "wide" in shorter shots, but very "narrow"/straighter back at full power, proportional to the size of his weight shift. Notice how the disc and body move relative to one another through the move and you start to get something about how the move works, including the arm path and grip dynamics, I reckon. Why does it matter that Wiggins looks like he could take a tackle or swing a ram in his standstill just as well as throw a Frisbee? This is the main lesson from posture theory, which also includes grips and their intents.

One of the reasons I still like watching players when their form was more raw, clunky, and sometimes violent is it contains lessons about how the move works overall. If you watch a baby learning to walk it is mostly a process of being out of balance and falling until the brain learns to predict and calibrate itself, then you get a phase transition that becomes what we call "walking." The arms are part of that process. Many people learning form in adulthood never explore the range that might make them fall down, which restricts their search and learning space. The same can happen to arm moves and grips as part of the overall move, I think. Just some fun neuromuscular lessons learned along the way.

Probably good reason to compare and test grip effects across tools, relate them to the overall move, psychological intent etc. in the long run.

Here's an example:

Good video, but how the hell????

"pour the coffee" I've already made my joke about this.. cause nobody really pours anything that way except when your waiter is trying to be polite and not reach to far over your table. But holy crap. He pushes his wrist forward at one point... And the disc is like pointing so far down ...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[disc-golf-neil]

That standstill is already somewhat slowed down from about 1:34 here. Good to watch it in real time too.



I can probably slow it down more on my desktop.


A few angles here including slow motion. Watch the first throw for the similar complex interaction between disc and hand. There is visible torque on disc coming into and out of release. In contrast, GG and Jesper had torque coming into the release but (appear to be) low wobble when they come out. Puzzle: what's different about their whip cracks? What's the same?



Wiggins is a good example of someone who uses out-in-out pattern that becomes very "wide" in shorter shots, but very "narrow"/straighter back at full power, proportional to the size of his weight shift. Notice how the disc and body move relative to one another through the move and you start to get something about how the move works, including the arm path and grip dynamics, I reckon. Why does it matter that Wiggins looks like he could take a tackle or swing a ram in his standstill just as well as throw a Frisbee? This is the main lesson from posture theory, which also includes grips and their intents.

One of the reasons I still like watching players when their form was more raw, clunky, and sometimes violent is it contains lessons about how the move works overall. If you watch a baby learning to walk it is mostly a process of being out of balance and falling until the brain learns to predict and calibrate itself, then you get a phase transition that becomes what we call "walking." The arms are part of that process. Many people learning form in adulthood never explore the range that might make them fall down, which restricts their search and learning space. The same can happen to arm moves and grips as part of the overall move, I think. Just some fun neuromuscular lessons learned along the way.

Probably good reason to compare and test grip effects across tools, relate them to the overall move, psychological intent etc. in the long run.

Here's an example:

Good video, but how the hell????

"pour the coffee" I've already made my joke about this.. cause nobody really pours anything that way except when your waiter is trying to be polite and not reach to far over your table. But holy crap. He pushes his wrist forward at one point... And the disc is like pointing so far down ...

www.dgcoursereview.com

The heel first looks so odd. I guess it's an example of elephant walk.

 

[Brychanus]

The heel first looks so odd. I guess it's an example of elephant walk.

Yeah I find that style easier to stride off in a forward or diagonal shift like that.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

BTW, I'm pretty certain now that even when I don't try to pour the tea significantly with F1P-3 grip alignment, not from the footage (hard to see) but just from playing with it in my hand. I can't help it when I use thumb pressure in that grip and a combination of a strong intuition to throw on plane. Kind of analogous to doing a shadow swing with pronation so the disc doesn't spin out accidentally vs committing to a throw while starting in pronation makes you want to turn the key so the disc can eject and spin out. The F1P-3 alignment without any pouring of the tea verges on disc orientation that feels like the disc won't properly spin out unless you pour the tea.

I need to make a vid clarifying this for the YT folks too, hah.

But I also tested F1P2 but didn't get a large sample size because it was the same session as another test. It was the least comfortable grip so far (not because I had to do 3 fingers) and pouring the tea vs not trying to had no real impact, perhaps it was hard to successfully maintain pouring the tea with this grip.





Vid for this test:

 

[isamoor]

I'm not setup to do screenshots, but it seems like Mason Ford does something close to F1P3. His grip seems unique when viewed on Jomez this season. And his disc flights all seem very neutral.

 

[Brychanus]

The F1P-3 alignment without any pouring of the tea verges on disc orientation that feels like the disc won't properly spin out unless you pour the tea.

If I understand what you mean by pour the tea in its dynamic context, this is part of the late arm-disc interaction that occurs when also leveraging out a hammer and probably part of why that grip or those close to it works for someone like me.

F1P2 - interesting how some of the spin data appear to drop in some cases.

I keep thinking about how to communicate what I think will be some meeting point between "forward engineering" and "reverse engineering" the grip in the context of the overall move. This is not really a criticism because you could do what you're doing with the same method, code all those data, then formally test them if you address the following.

I still hypothesize that you will get interactions between most of these readings and your balance and weight shift should you choose to address it. I will try to be clear about the general pattern in your overall throw. Your one leg move still has a mostly vertical axis of rotation, but not all of the lateral balance that puts you into a tilted axis that we see in most top moves. So you have more of a spin move off the rear foot and then again on the plant foot when your weight lands than is ideal, at least to a degree. I used to do that too, and my grip dynamics changed necessarily when the shift dynamics changed. This is part of that shoulder abduction/flexion comment I made elsewhere & in comparison to Simon when talking about how the move works overall. It is also related to why I nudged you toward Double Dragon and the Windmill X-step recently - the balance coming off the rear foot gives you more access to what I'm talking about when you reachback and then land on the plant foot. The windmill is a way of tricking a person into moving through the tilted axis from foot to foot without them having to think about it (usually). If the primary force of the move ends up mostly horizontal, it still ideally encodes more of the postural learning from the windmill. The way your arm swings to be on plane will likely adjust in that case (which is why you had nose down issues in the first try), which also means it will need to adjust to maintain a grip, pivot, and whip effect heading into the release even if your move is quite horizontal. E.g., the way Simon moves to throw "upward nose down" is posturally different and includes the tilted balance, which encodes a different flow of sequence, posture, etc.

I was just making my morning coffee doing little motion experiments again.

If I plant my foot and turn a key in the counterclockwise direction, the entire chain from foot to hand through the wrist does the same thing that happens when I literally pour coffee. The posture subtly shifts during the move and the elbow goes "up" with shoulder flexion and abduction on its own. Same thing when I swing a hammer for deadly intent, same way when I watch Simon from a rear view.

~0:29 here:

For me the arm "unit" part clicked quickly. But it took a long time working on the shift without hammers to figure out how to get it to apply to the disc, including lots of input on my Dingle arm drills from Sidewinder. If I had used my old grips and grip dynamics after my shift changed, it did not work as well. Once I changed it and as my body adapts to the new move, I am throwing farther with less effort again, with the requisite adjustments in grips that only tend to sink in over time.

I can clarify or be more specific if anything is helpful.

 

[RowingBoats]

If I understand what you mean by pour the tea in its dynamic context, this is part of the late arm-disc interaction that occurs when also leveraging out a hammer and probably part of why that grip or those close to it works for someone like me.

F1P2 - interesting how some of the spin data appear to drop in some cases.

I keep thinking about how to communicate what I think will be some meeting point between "forward engineering" and "reverse engineering" the grip in the context of the overall move. This is not really a criticism because you could do what you're doing with the same method, code all those data, then formally test them if you address the following.

I still hypothesize that you will get interactions between most of these readings and your balance and weight shift should you choose to address it. I will try to be clear about the general pattern in your overall throw. Your one leg move still has a mostly vertical axis of rotation, but not all of the lateral balance that puts you into a tilted axis that we see in most top moves. So you have more of a spin move off the rear foot and then again on the plant foot when your weight lands than is ideal, at least to a degree. I used to do that too, and my grip dynamics changed necessarily when the shift dynamics changed. This is part of that shoulder abduction/flexion comment I made elsewhere & in comparison to Simon when talking about how the move works overall. It is also related to why I nudged you toward Double Dragon and the Windmill X-step recently - the balance coming off the rear foot gives you more access to what I'm talking about when you reachback and then land on the plant foot. The windmill is a way of tricking a person into moving through the tilted axis from foot to foot without them having to think about it (usually). If the primary force of the move ends up mostly horizontal, it still ideally encodes more of the postural learning from the windmill. The way your arm swings to be on plane will likely adjust in that case (which is why you had nose down issues in the first try), which also means it will need to adjust to maintain a grip, pivot, and whip effect heading into the release even if your move is quite horizontal. E.g., the way Simon moves to throw "upward nose down" is posturally different and includes the tilted balance, which encodes a different flow of sequence, posture, etc.

For me the arm "unit" part clicked quickly. But it took a long time working on the shift without hammers to figure out how to get it to apply to the disc, including lots of input on my Dingle arm drills from Sidewinder. If I had used my old grips and grip dynamics after my shift changed, it did not work as well. Once I changed it and as my body adapts to the new move, I am throwing farther with less effort again, with the requisite adjustments in grips that only tend to sink in over time.

I can clarify or be more specific if anything is helpful.

Does the one-leg drill not help here? I feel like people sleep on that drill sooooo badly, or they misunderstand and think it is too rigid.

Doing a more dynamic 'kickstand' shift off of the rear leg, imo, is perfectly fine for accomplishing what the drill is trying to make you feel.

Even doing back/forth motions but ENFORCING that you throw off of the lead leg is an amazing thing to feel.

 

[Brychanus]

Does the one-leg drill not help here? I feel like people sleep on that drill sooooo badly, or they misunderstand and think it is too rigid.

Doing a more dynamic 'kickstand' shift off of the rear leg, imo, is perfectly fine for accomplishing what the drill is trying to make you feel.

Even doing back/forth motions but ENFORCING that you throw off of the lead leg is an amazing thing to feel.

Yeah exactly what should help here esp. when throwing out of a version of a one-legged throw like he is here. It would be a way also of testing exactly what I keep suspecting is going to affect the grip data as his OLD improves, for example.

"Kickstand" (I like that): What I used to misunderstand and do wrong in the move is that you need to build up some foot pressure along the rear foot instep. Failing to do that caused all kinds of bad things and I needed to go back and rework it from scratch. If I catch your meaning Sidewinder's OLD works as a "kickstand" move allowing pressure back into the rear foot in the backswing before shifting forward from that foot's instep in the tilted axis on the front leg. I personally didn't figure out the balance "trick" until doing a lot of other moves, but would generally point people to try it out and attempt to learn it in OLD first. Since I'm a weightshift snob of sorts, you can also do "sorta" insteppy moves that are still more spinning than a walking-like shift, which is part of the broader context/mechanical problem I keep suggesting.