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2 questions for those in-the-know:
1) is this secret technique the same as excellent seabass/HUB kind of technique, or is this a 'different' method?
2) is user Blake_T still around? It's like his posts just stopped.
Cliff's notes:
It's sort of an "extreme swedish technique" but performed with keeping the arm straight and shifting the shoulder swing plane to be more like a hockey slap shot or golf swing. in its early stages it involves focusing on bringing the edge around. once that can be done, making modifications to the pendulum motion so that the arm bends and elbow extension (forearm arc flare) happens with the same feeling.
basically... the complete secret technique has incredible efficiency by using particular entry angles and unloading the levers/joints to their maximum potential.
swedish technique focuses on leverage and bringing the edge around.
1. Pretty much.
2. Blake was the founder of DGR and I think Gotta Go Gotta Throw disc golf store. He was never part of DGCR. DGR website has been defunct for several years. Not sure what he up to these days.
1. Pretty much.
2. Blake was the founder of DGR and I think Gotta Go Gotta Throw disc golf store. He was never part of DGCR. DGR website has been defunct for several years. Not sure what he up to these days.
After poking around back in time, I'll leave this quote because It seems today's disc golf form conversations don't read anything like this (possible it's for good reason that I'm unaware of):
Time line to snap generation and prior:
1. Shot planning and disc selection.
2. X or shuffle step with or without run up or standing still.
3. Right hand backhand throw the third step of the x steps with the right foot plants.
4. Only now does the arm start moving and intentionally slowly trying to maintain a fairly straight line from back to front. How perfect the straightness is depends on the technique one uses. All the usually used efficient techniques share one component that is the disc moves in a straight line from the elbow straightening forward except the forearm straightening will shift the disc to the left during the elbow straightening. The end does move in a straight line and that's when it counts.
5.Most of the movement of the disc and arm forward comes from a slow mellow muscled motion of the legs reducing in speed to where the chest and hips faces a quarter turn left of the target.
6. Once the shoulders, chest and the hips reach 90 degrees left of the target the arm is moved with slowish speed and with as loose muscles as possible until the front of the disc is as close to the target as the right side. The optimum position varies depending on arm speed of the individual it also varies during career. You need to find out the best place now for yourself.
7. If the arm pull height is lower than the arm pit try to move a part of the disc under the shoulder for maximum elbow bend angle before straightening it. This requires a reach back position that is closer to the left side of the tee pad than with a straight arm pull. The elbow is very quickly moved as far as it will go toward the target minus an inch to avoid muscle damage in the shoulder area from full motion range, abrupt stop and locking up the elbow.
8. The legs and minimal amount of time later the hips use a lot of power to explosively quickly turn the torso toward the target while the elbow starts to straighten at first quickly.
9. Then as fast as you can once the knuckles are 8-10" short of the arm being straightened toward the target. Beginning with the elbow being stopped almost in place to move the previously generated motion into straightening the forearm. Here the muscles will tension up a lot and the wrist bending back from the acceleration should be fought against to get a great spring like loading of the wrist area tendons. As long as the wrist doesn't become totally motionless which few can achieve at pro power level. You don't want to squeeze the muscles to bulge like lifting weights but move the forearm forward as quickly as you can. Think moving fast with loose muscles and let nature take it's course. The muscles tense up automatically so you don't need to add muscle effort in any other way than trying to move the forearm fast and slightly tensioning the so far totally loose grip on the disc. Or the disc will slip early once you gain enough acceleration. That comes from muscle power and quickness training. Field practice will give speed in time and lifting weights and other gym work gives the power to move and accelerate fast.
10. The magic part. Once the arm is almost straight the actively farther to the right than chest turning shoulders add to the work of the legs and hips. If you managed to keep the elbow almost in place the body starts to pull the arm backward while the arm starts to move to the right and back away from the target from the shoulder socket. The spring like tension built up in the wrist area starts to unload by moving the wrist forward toward hand shaking position. This is incidental motion from the arm changing the motion direction. When you add fuel to the fire by consciously turning the wrist right of the hand shaking position the disc accelerates forward abruptly.
11. Magic part deux. Just like elbow stopping transfers created energy to straightening the elbow forward faster than possible with arm muscles alone stopping the wrist with as hard braking as you can will add another leap in acceleration to the disc. This time the spin on the disc increases dramatically as well. Pro players have been measured to increase spin rate by 40 % from wrist straightening and the disc pivoting between the now hard clenching thumb and the index finger. Think of it like this: When the fingers are stationary the energy can only move to the disc. This maximizes spin and sacrifices speed and hurts you in the short run. Safe maximized spin/speed combination comes from an abrupt retarding, not full stopping, of the wrist opening 10-20 degrees to the right of hand shaking position for hyper spin and accelerating the arm to move faster after the disc separation from fingers allowing a full follow through. Regular snap stops the wrist at hand shaking position. When you retard the wrist motion to the right the wrist should be pushed down or be already down so that the disc is inline but lower than the line between the wrist and the elbow. This helps in keeping the nose of the disc down. It isn't easy to keep on holding on to the disc so that it will not slip out prior to the disc pivoting between the index finger and the thumb. Many don't have enough finger strength to accomplish that without training. Squeezing almost as hard with the middle finger as the index finger helps. When the wrist slows down the disc leaves the vicinity of the palm during the pivot. The disc moves with so much force that the index finger can't stay crooked and if you pinch hard enough the disc will pull the index finger straight pointed at the target. By this time the disc has pivoted so that only the finger print of the index finger and the thumb touch the disc at the rear of the disc. That, a straighter flight and added distance are indicators of a great snap. If you manage to turn the shoulders so that the arm is straight as the disc rips out and the shoulder line points to 11.30-11.45 o'clock with the target being at 12 o'clock you can't achieve more from power from body positions. After that only more acceleration and stronger retarding of the elbow and wrist during proper times adds more power along with a more powerful run up.
After poking around back in time, I'll leave this quote because It seems today's disc golf form conversations don't read anything like this (possible it's for good reason that I'm unaware of):
I didn't read that super carefully but it sounds like it's mostly fine. It's more a description of what is happening rather than advice on how to throw. I wouldn't focus on the "straight line" like that either.
As for OP: I honestly think they were overestimating the difference between that and Swedish. Really it's just thinking about the swing starting from the rear shoulder rather than the spine or front shoulder, making the swing lever much longer.
synchronicity: the simultaneous occurrence of events which appear significantly related but have no discernible causal connection.
I was using GG's form to do a frame by frame breakdown for Roger (of the lessons on youtube roger) - and I could not wrap my head around why GG throws his left arm as he does. I chewed on this concept for some time after seeing the overhead of Ezra and thinking, "self, you certainly are lining up way more like Ezra than GG... why is that?"
More thinking and messing with the off arm and then I see it: Avery Jenkins off arm:
They're moving the handle of the whip to the rear shoulder and the "moving backwards" of the GG karate chop bases the rear shoulder.
Off to the field I go, only to find out that timing the karate chop is dastardly difficult. What feels like you're basing the rear shoulder and affecting the extension, on tape... was way too late. Disc was gone.
So then I go back to the Simon style of basing the off arm behind your shoulder just behind you:
Surely I can do that... oh Lordy the tapes. And so I slowed it down to 1 mph and developed a mantra: "Hold onto the disc only"
My goal became 2 items:
1. off arm had to physically grab my left hamstring or I wouldn't let the disc go
2. eyes remain perpendicular to trajectory until the disc was gone.
This was my gold standard. Success was simply getting into that position, no matter how slow. This feels 100% different than the Ezra style that I had been using for years:
First session was buddy Travis and myself throwing rocs for nearly 2 hours back and forth... hitting it about 1 outta 10 times and thinking we had it only to review and see old habits. Seconds session was solo, and an absolute mess. Every attempt at pouring on power meant I'd start to try to throw with my arm and disc would blow out of my grip.
Third session was yesterday and I spelled it out to Travis at the beginning: only goal is to get into the position, zero interest in adding power. Mantra time. And the shots start happening, Rocs at 300' with zero muscling it up. Rocs out longer... Rocs flying literally the best I've ever thrown. I'm going with the shortest stride I can manage and grabbing my left hamstring. Eyes perpendicular and my lead hip timing starts improving.
Lead hip is now pushing back in the brace exactly as the extension is hitting the redirection. The disc is flying different than I've seen it in years. Travis is throwing absolute rockets. 400' fairway drivers 4' off the ground. There's still plenty of mis-hits, but we're in an hour and we decide to grab the high speed drivers and head over to see what we have left in the tank. We're gonna do an actual GPS measurement and also go out with the speed gun again and see if there's actual metrics to back up my "feels", but this disc was flying longer than I've personally seen my discs fly for years. (All internet claims will add 10%)
I'm excited about form again... and not to mention that I pinged SW22 and we chatted on the phone about all this and I sure wish I was able to get back to his neck of the woods. He's a national treasure and we're lucky SOB's to have him.
Anyways, if you're still reading - print out that pic of Simon or GG and hang it on your wall and obsessively work on getting into that position... it is the secret sauce.
On one hand, I think this is what most people (and I) mean when they say "keep the head down/back." Keeping it perpendicular to the target is more appropriate advice. It's just like "keeping your eye on the ball" in golf. I find myself wanting to "look" as quickly as possible and it's a difficult habit to break.
On the other hand, when my swing is really working, it's happening before my head even has a chance to "look" and I feel like I know what SW means when he says the head is separate and doesn't really affect the swing if you're stacked (some people look at the disc, some at the target).
_
I also tend to lean forward with my head and torso towards my staggered plant leg too much. I think this takes your head and upper body off the "axis" of the throw and can slow the rotation down (like putting your weight on the outside of a merry-go-round). In a way, Ezra is wasting energy by including his head's weight in the swing, instead of getting it behind it.
Again, all theories based on things I've been fighting in my throw.
I feel like a fanboy I say it so much, but SW is a gift.
... and can slow the rotation down (like putting your weight on the outside of a merry-go-round). In a way, Ezra is wasting energy by including his head's weight in the swing, instead of getting it behind it...
To me, what I'm gonna call "basing the rear shoulder" does slow down rotation. That's actually an important feature to the GG/Avery throw. They're not trying to rotate the shoulders open like Ezra, I mean look at the position of GGs shoulders. He's created the whip that remains taught from the disc-grip through the extension arm through his shoulders, "based" at the rear shoulder. The back of that whip (the handle) is being stopped with his karate chop, so the longest lever he can create (rear shoulder to extension hand) elongates and propagates his momentum.
So my backswing has to fight the desire to "uncork" and destroy my timing. Literally every aspect of trying harder destroys the timing. The only thing that seemed to allow me to add power was to increase the shoulder turn depth in the backswing, knowing that I'd still have to base that rear shoulder.
Travis came back from lunch, he measured and the distance clocked in at 450' golf shots. None of our throws were flexed, just 10' high slight-flipped to flat Wraiths. No wind, maybe a 1'-2' downhill if any... it was on sports fields. To put that in context for me, I was maxing out at probably 415' / 61 mph drivers leading up to this. I have been working on flexibility in the last weeks, and throwing more consistently - but the most pronounced difference is that throwing across my body like this is the easiest distance I can imagine feeling.
To me, what I'm gonna call "basing the rear shoulder" does slow down rotation. That's actually an important feature to the GG/Avery throw. They're not trying to rotate the shoulders open like Ezra, I mean look at the position of GGs shoulders. He's created the whip that remains taught from the disc-grip through the extension arm through his shoulders, "based" at the rear shoulder. The back of that whip (the handle) is being stopped with his karate chop, so the longest lever he can create (rear shoulder to extension hand) elongates and propagates his momentum.
So my backswing has to fight the desire to "uncork" and destroy my timing. Literally every aspect of trying harder destroys the timing. The only thing that seemed to allow me to add power was to increase the shoulder turn depth in the backswing, knowing that I'd still have to base that rear shoulder.
Travis came back from lunch, he measured and the distance clocked in at 450' golf shots. None of our throws were flexed, just 10' high slight-flipped to flat Wraiths. No wind, maybe a 1'-2' downhill if any... it was on sports fields. To put that in context for me, I was maxing out at probably 415' / 61 mph drivers leading up to this. I have been working on flexibility in the last weeks, and throwing more consistently - but the most pronounced difference is that throwing across my body like this is the easiest distance I can imagine feeling.
I'm gonna try working on this, and like you, I'm not gonna worry about distance. I'm just gonna focus on getting into the correct position, and making it repeatable.
I think what I'm saying is Ezra's rear shoulder is not based, and it's slowing him down in a bad way. Most people see the spine or front shoulder as the axis the swing rotates around, but it's actually the rear shoulder like you and SW are saying.
I struggle with stacking my head behind the swing and look a lot like Ezra, with my torso flinging forward.
Yeah, I mean Ezra clearly has pro-athlete level physical attributes. To hold onto the disc through his arc takes hand vices that I don't have. Much easier for normal people to slow down, increase the length of the whip.
