Are Flip City, Idlewild..etc...wussy courses?

[optidiscic]

The most challenging local course in my area just got a 1.5 from a local beginner. Seems that it just will never get a good DGCR rating due to it getting slammed by Noobs. These are quotes from the only 4 reviewers who gave it below a 4 rating(the other 19 gave it a 4 or above):
-Cons: too long. too convoluted and confusing. the holes are too long even for experienced players to not get a sore arm.
-Cons: Incredibly hard (maybe I'm just a newbie).
- Cons:Almost every hole is unforgiving, which is a real con for beginners (like me). This course will eat you alive!
-Cons: Only a handfull of the holes here are fun for staters to play the rest will leave you very very annoyed and chasing after your disk, this is not for people just starting out.
So I'm at the conclusion that for being difficult Nockamixon loses any shot at a top rating...Nocky has flaws..it holds water, it's rocky and muddy in places....we need to build some more boardwalks and bridges etc. but being too hard? C'mon that should not be a con. My goal when I play Nocky is to break 80...to me thats a good day. Most Pros throw in the 70s there and par is a difficult earned 67. (doesn't happen often.
With the recent trashing of Austin Bible Church....which seems a very challenging wooded course and the history of Iron Hill in Delaware and Renny in NC getting dinged for being too challenging (Long fair but unforgiving fairways w trees) I am starting to wonder if the top 10 rated courses are wussy friendly and never get the newbie trashing treatment. Maybe Noobs dont go out of there way to distant remote places like Paw Paw and Flip City....I realize the ratings mean nothing....Im just starting to think that Flip etc.. might be easy courses that are just well maintained.

 

[optidiscic]

Makes me want to set up a tour bus of DGCR noobs and have them play the top courses just to level the field...Machismo can drive! In reality...I'm actually beginning to relish the underground outsider status of the courses I like. They are just too hardcore to be mainstream

 

[NDABRUSH]

Makes me want to set up a tour bus of DGCR noobs and have them play the top courses just to level the field...Machismo can drive! In reality...I'm actually beginning to relish the underground outsider status of the courses I like. They are just too hardcore to be mainstream

He would drive straight to the closest Lightly wooded course and say "Now this here is a real course".:wall:

 

[chain-addicted]

Makes me want to set up a tour bus of DGCR noobs and have them play the top courses just to level the field.....

Reminds me of that song "Takin' retards to the zoo" by The Dead Milkmen.

 

[billnchristy]

I saw that review and just pictured the poop storm coming...

 

[optidiscic]

I saw that review and just pictured the poop storm coming...

I'm not the one who started throwing poop..haha..I'm beginning to picture a busload of Noobs throwing poop on a crazy bus trip!

Taking Retards to the Zoo...Im thinking of the scene from "One flew over the Cuckoos Nest when the Patients escape and go On a Bus Trip"

 

[Jukeshoe]

Reminds me of that song "Takin' retards to the zoo" by The Dead Milkmen.

A classic! :clap: (btw my fav Dead Milkman song is Stuart.)

 

[NDABRUSH]

I saw that review and just pictured the poop storm coming...

I read the "review" and it reminded me of airplane. When the flight attendant came by with magazines. She asks do you have anything light. Att. says here is a leaflet, Famous Jewish Sports legends. Not many words in that thar review.:thmbdown:

 

[optidiscic]

The drummer of dead milkmen is from my hometown..his dad was a history teacher at my high school in like 87-88. Made for some funny comments during classes.

 

[Dave242]

m just starting to think that Flip etc.. might be easy courses that are just well maintained.

To this statement and title of the thread, here is an excerpt from my review of Idlewild:

I was expecting to get beat up by a grizzly man (like I feel after playing Renaissance in Charlotte, NC). Instead, I left feeling like I was beat up by my sister! Frankly, I was let down based on my hopes and expectations.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of GREAT shots and great spots on the course, but there were waaaaay too many "doinky" holes. What I mean by that is multi-throw holes where you float a putter 100-200' to a landing zone and then do it again and again to get to a par 4 or 5. I mean, I could make a ton of par 5's in my house that would be about as interesting: Throw from closet to bedroom door (10'), throw down hall (13'), throw into bedroom (10'), throw into closet (8'), putt. Obviously, I am overstating my point....but I hope it makes my point........ On top of that, there are 2 holes well short of 200'.

I would not call Idlewild an easy course per se, but I would call it an incredibly well maintained and manicured and beautiful course. My observations may be part of the reason my noobs find Idlewild fun.

 

[optidiscic]

In regards to the reviews in question. WTF is all I can say. I guess the site is what it is..very mainstream and thus its kind of like the American Idol of Disc Golf....appeals to everyone and no one at the same time. But we all pay attention to it for some reason. I guess the top ranked is kind of like an American Idol winner.....hardcore players won't be so impressed and will enjoy their own niche moreso.

I really wish there was a feature that clumped courses together...sort of like the movie rentals where they say ..If you liked this movie you might like these other 10 titles.(although sometimes way off the mark I think it might be a way to interpet things better if user driven...maybe?)

 

[optidiscic]

To this statement and title of the thread, here is an excerpt from my review of Idlewild:

I was expecting to get beat up by a grizzly man (like I feel after playing Renaissance in Charlotte, NC). Instead, I left feeling like I was beat up by my sister! Frankly, I was let down based on my hopes and expectations.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of GREAT shots and great spots on the course, but there were waaaaay too many "doinky" holes. What I mean by that is multi-throw holes where you float a putter 100-200' to a landing zone and then do it again and again to get to a par 4 or 5. I mean, I could make a ton of par 5's in my house that would be about as interesting: Throw from closet to bedroom door (10'), throw down hall (13'), throw into bedroom (10'), throw into closet (8'), putt. Obviously, I am overstating my point....but I hope it makes my point........ On top of that, there are 2 holes well short of 200'.



I would not call Idlewild an easy course per se, but I would call it an incredibly well maintained and manicured and beautiful course. My observations may be part of the reason my noobs find Idlewild fun.

Can't agree with you more Dave...Ive heard Flip is not so challenging as it is fun to play...Hmmmm...maybe there should be a most challenging top 10 list?

 

[jeverett]

Along these lines.. there already is an available measurement for course difficulty.. SSA. I know the listings aren't very user-friendly from the PDGA site, but is there perhaps a way to incorporate a known course SSA on the DGCR course listing? It *might* help with separating course difficulty from course enjoyment?

 

[Dave242]

SSA measures the number of throws on average it takes to complete a course. It is not necessarily a measure of difficulty. There are a couple of threads about this and Olorin has compiled a bunch of really good and well-put-together thoughts on this here.

In my mind, difficulty is a measure of how many obstacles there are per length of a hole or a course. The more obstacles (trees, terrain, OB etc) to navigate, the harder the hole. So, the more obstacles, the higher the average score......so Difficulty = Scoring Average / Length. Since a standardize and the most widely agreed upon scoring average is Scratch Scoring Average.......

Difficulty = SSA/Length.

 

[tallpaul]

I have been thinking that even though it will mean death in terms of thumbs down; that based purely on the footage at Idlewild; there is probably no way to rate it with the top, big boys. I am, of course, waiting (hopefully at the DGCR meet up) to play it, before I say any more than that...but, even considering that the amenities will add .5 or more to it's overall; I'm doubting that it can stand up to tougher courses for pure disc golf toughness/skill of play. When I review though, I do try to take both noobies and pro level players into consideration when doing the overall evaluation of a course. After all, this site caters more to noobies than anyone. The pros and long time players have always found their way to courses based on word of mouth and making contacts at tourneys.

Speaking of pros; our local state tour tourney stop is in town this weekend; and thus, both the local and out of town...better players....have been in abundance the past week or so. I am a quality advanced player; and if I played tourney disc regularly any more; probably could be a contenda as a pro master, but I play more rounds with lesser skilled players these days, than I do with the pros (they do tend to be kind of clickish ya know?). But, as I was saying; I have been playing more rounds in the last week, with gold level guys I don't get to see all that often: and, I must state even more emphatically than stated above; that unless you play with pros on a regular basis; especially with the new, high speed plastic; it is tough to evaluate what a gold level player is thinking of a hole as compared to mere mortals. These guys simply spike anything up to 300, if you give them any window at all; and I mean any tiny window. For them, the question is; can they hit that tiny window on tourney day; or, more to the point, will they hit all 18+.

 

[billnchristy]

A classic! (btw my fav Dead Milkman song is Stuart.)

Anyway, for his tenth birthday, all he wanted was a Burrow Owl.
Kept bugging his old man. "Dad, get me a burrow owl. I'll never
ask for anything else as long as I live." So the guy
breaks down and buys him a burrow owl.

Anyway, 10:30, the other night, I go out in my yard, and there's
the Worker kid, looking up in the tree. I say, "What are
you looking for?" He says "I'm looking for my burrow owl."
I say, "Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick. Everybody knows
the burrow owl lives. In a hole. In the ground. Why the hell do you
think they call it a burrow owl, anyway?"

 

[Jukeshoe]

Anyway, for his tenth birthday, all he wanted was a Burrow Owl.
Kept bugging his old man. "Dad, get me a burrow owl. I'll never
ask for anything else as long as I live." So the guy
breaks down and buys him a burrow owl.

Anyway, 10:30, the other night, I go out in my yard, and there's
the Worker kid, looking up in the tree. I say, "What are
you looking for?" He says "I'm looking for my burrow owl."
I say, "Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick. Everybody knows
the burrow owl lives. In a hole. In the ground. Why the hell do you
think they call it a burrow owl, anyway?"

Yeeees! Funniest song EVA!:hfive:

Isn't it the "Wooster" kid, though? That's what I've always heard, at least.

"Take Des Moines, Iowa, for example..." Heh.

 

[optidiscic]

Flip appears to be par 3 golf...I enjoy risk reward par 4s like Quakers Challenge, Nockamixon, Maple Hill, Iron Hill, and so on...I do love a well designed par 3 course thats just plain out unique and fun to play...I loved Devens in Mass and locally here in PA I enjoy Jordan Park and South Mountain. I believe a par 3 course can be top rated like Flip is...I just think it's par 3 status saves it from getting bashed by lesser skilled players. As for Idlewild..I never played it..but it seems to be based only on what Ive heard is that its the type of course lesser skilled players may do as well as better players due to the forced multi shot holes and lack of realistic risk-reward...Seems the word on here is that a lesser skilled will throw conservative and score 70 and a better player may be forced to play conservative due to restrictive fairways and shoot a 68. Perhaps in a strange way Idle is beginner friendly in that regard...tough to discern the top guys from the cannon fodder. I play Nocky and my goal is to break 80. Top Pros go mid to low 60s...thats quite a spread from AM to Pro. My point is at Flip due to its par 3 I am always feeling like Im in the game....at Idlewild due to Pros balls being snipped I might be in the hunt...at Iron Hill, Renny, Nocky, Austin Ridge Bible I realistically have no shot at hanging with the better guys. I don't doubt Idle and Flip are fun and outstanding courses I'm just annoyed by challenging courses getting thwacked for being what they were designed to be......Difficult!

 

[solomon.trenton]

have you seen any of the vibram movies? Maple Hill is far from a wussy course. i understand where you are coming from, but I'm just saying..

 

[marcwatts]

Feedback from a Flip City frolfer

I haven't played Idlewild but have made the trip to Flip City 6 or 7 times. It gets my vote for favorite course for a number of reasons. I think in general it is fairly forgiving. It has some long holes that I don't think anybody birdies, but most of the fairways are open. I personally think people like playing there because it's a private course with seclusion, lots of variety, alcohol friendly, and a good number of birdie opportunities. I know there have been some tournaments there and a few of the pro's shoot 10 down on the 24 holes. The owner is really proud to be near the top of this websites list, but he knows it's not super difficult and he has been taking advice from pros on how to change basket locations to change that. I've been playing for over 11 years and have seen almost 40 courses and I would be seriously surprised if someone called Flip City a "wussy course". Give it a try if you get a chance.