How to adjust spin vs. speed

[JHern]

Black Udder recently wrote on another thread that a good player can adjust the amount of spin vs. the amount of speed they impose on any given throw.

This would be a very useful thing to be able to do, and would allow one to increase the utility and number of possible lines of any disc in the bag. (My own bag is getting heavy with discs, and maybe learning this skill would allow me to reduce the number of discs.)

Could any of the experts here describe how this is done? And is it done differently at different distances...say at each of 100 ft, 200 ft, 300 ft, 400 ft, is the method for changing the spin rate different?

 

[cmlasley]

The only throw where I actively try to throw with less spin is a turnover. If I have to start a disc with hyzer and get it to land to the right, I focus less on snap. It seems if I focus too much on snap, some of my discs will hold the line too well. I'm not sure mechanically what I'm doing, but I feel like my wrist is more dead. It is hard to explain.

The only time I throw with less arm speed is when I throw my putters. Everything else in my bag can take full arm speed. Certain discs, like Comets, for instance, take less armspeed and more snap to get out there a long way. I throw Rocs, though, which are highspeed stable enough to go just go straight no matter how fast I throw them.

 

[JR]

I'm not sure how right or efficient I am but here goes. Because I regard myself as small snap thrower and can fall back on strong arming when I want to and sometimes when not I can't tell how the things look like from the perspective of a big snap thrower.

Changing run up step amount, stepping speed, the amount of turning away from the target, the length of the reach back variations, changing speed on throws just like the variation of acceleration point of the arm adjusts the speed part of the equation. Grip strength lessening may allow micro slips that reduce spin. In extreme cases of slowing down/not turning away/not reaching back you're putting. But you don't want a lot of spin on the disc or it'll spit out more easily.

For more spin on shorter throws one could actively cock the wrist back a lot and with a conscious effort extend the hand from the wrist past neutral as quickly as you can. Then try to stop the wrist motion just like on drives. This way a stand still putting motion can have the disc land flat at 3' and rocket to the side on landing due to the extra spin. I'm not sure how well this would work on a full force drive because the timing requirements and stresses on the arm are more than I can handle at the moment. With more recuperation and muscle power I might be able to pull something like this off.

On turnovers that I want to land annied I throw fast to allow the flip but also try to get all of my measly spin on it as well to help keeping the anny. And use a flippy non flexing little fading disc to allow a little margin of error to speed generation. Disc selection is more important when tired when there's danger of not getting enough on the disc.

 

[Blake_T1]

in most cases, people cannot manipulate the amount of spin by a great enough magnitude to where it would make a noticeable difference in flight.

similarly, in most cases where people attempt to throw with less spin, what actually happens is that they slow their arm down before they enter the power zone and the result is greater wrist extension. greater wrist extension = more nose down = more turn.

in many cases where people attempt to throw with more spin, what actually happens is that they enter the power zone zone with too much speed and get less wrist extension (especially because they often exaggerated how far they are curled around the disc). the end result is less nose down and a more overstable flight path.

 

[black udder]

I didn't say anything before because I wanted to hear what was possible, but my intention by that comment was that the better players are able to throw with more than just spin or more than just arm power. They incorporate both so they get an even throw. If you are predominantly either, it will produce a totally different flight from one with an appropriate amount of spin/power.

Interesting to know that it's not something that's really adjusted... guess that answers one question, right JHern?

 

[JR]

There's one way to consistently tone down speed dominance after you learn late acceleration. Sneaking speed steps with eyes locked on target to avoid reaching back too far exaggeratedly slow arm pull to right pec position or later and then only start to use power from the arm alone. How much arm acceleration rate is determined by the distance requirement. You don't always need 100 % acceleration from the arm each time.

 

[masterbeato]

forwarded:

"i do not try to spin it, nor do i not try to spin it."

 

[JHern]

Interesting responses, indeed!

I also asked an old veteran at a local course about this yesterday, and he actually had a method for modulating spin that involved moving the location of the hit out away from his body (i.e., to the left). I guess this is like changing how close you get the disc to your chest on the pull. He said this gives less snap, less spin, and more flippy behavior from the disc...he was getting nice anhyzers doing this with a JLS, which held the line very nicely. I tried it a couple times myself, but it didn't work the way I meant it (both times it shanked into a tree instead).

 

[masterbeato]

if you come through away from your body like that you will tend to pull the disc to the right.

 

[JR]

if you come through away from your body like that you will tend to pull the disc to the right.

Which may not be bad if one wants to anny to the right anyway.

 

[bcsst26]

if you come through away from your body like that you will tend to pull the disc to the right.

Which may not be bad if one wants to anny to the right anyway.

Yeah but sucks if you have a beat in roc and it anny's to much. Personal experience on this one.

 

[garublador1]

I wouldn't even know how to tell whether or not I had any sort of effect on spin on a drive, let alone try to control how much spin is or isn't there.

I can see it for approaches, though.

 

[peteg]

I've recently been paying attention to this. There is a hole at my home course with a wide straight fairway to the pin and a tighter hyzer line on the right side. The hole is only around 225'. Most people don't throw the hyzer line, and when they watch me do it, they tell me they've never even thought of it. This is not surprising, since it's so much smaller and less inviting. Also, it's more difficult to park because of how far right to left the disc has to move in a relatively small distance after hitting a tight gap. It occurred to me the other week that the way i was making this shot work was by trying to throw with more spin and less power. The way I accomplish it (I think) is by following through less, and instead trying to kind of short arm snap the disc. The effect is to send the disc out with a lot of spin, but without a ton of speed, and it allows me to get the right to left flight i need over a short distance.

 

[masterbeato]

I've recently been paying attention to this. There is a hole at my home course with a wide straight fairway to the pin and a tighter hyzer line on the right side. The hole is only around 225'. Most people don't throw the hyzer line, and when they watch me do it, they tell me they've never even thought of it. This is not surprising, since it's so much smaller and less inviting. Also, it's more difficult to park because of how far right to left the disc has to move in a relatively small distance after hitting a tight gap. It occurred to me the other week that the way i was making this shot work was by trying to throw with more spin and less power. The way I accomplish it (I think) is by following through less, and instead trying to kind of short arm snap the disc. The effect is to send the disc out with a lot of spin, but without a ton of speed, and it allows me to get the right to left flight i need over a short distance.

similarly, in most cases where people attempt to throw with less spin, what actually happens is that they slow their arm down before they enter the power zone and the result is greater wrist extension. greater wrist extension = more nose down = more turn.

when people try not to spin it they slow down before the power zone and get that greater wrist extension, it results in more spin.

in many cases where people attempt to throw with more spin, what actually happens is that they enter the power zone with too much speed and get less wrist extension (especially because they often exaggerated how far they are curled around the disc). the end result is less nose down and a more overstable flight path.

when people attempt to throw with more spin, they go too fast into the power zone and get less wrist extension, resulting in less spin when they try to spin it.

nose down orientation of the disc is when the hand is positioned behind the disc. wrist extending from closed, to open.

so once again i repeat: "i do not try to spin it nor do i not try to spin it."

 

[Timko]

Could adjusting your grip change the speed/spin ratio? Almost like the difference between a pitcher's change-up and their fastball: same arm angle, same power into the throw, but the grip changes the amount of power transferred to the ball (or disc, in our case). I'm not stating this as fact or anything (I don't like to change my power/smash factor unless I absolutely have to, then I normally mess it up), but I think it's good conjecture.

 

[JR]

Could adjusting your grip change the speed/spin ratio? Almost like the difference between a pitcher's change-up and their fastball: same arm angle, same power into the throw, but the grip changes the amount of power transferred to the ball (or disc, in our case). I'm not stating this as fact or anything (I don't like to change my power/smash factor unless I absolutely have to, then I normally mess it up), but I think it's good conjecture.

Lessening spin at full speed is definitely possible with micro slips. I have published top down slo mo of myself throwing fairly hard when exhausted not being able to hold on to the disc at the video critique section. The vids show me pulling the disc close to the left and right pec and not extending the elbow fully with my wrist being 10-15 degrees short of neutral with the disc slipping from my fingers. When the arm is already at some pace the spin isn't gonna occur fully with the thumb lock not rotating around the edge of the disc. Pigs aren't that much affected in flight shape but stable to understable discs show some difference in being less HSS more LSS. Enough to be a factor in tunnels and gas in shot planning for flight shaping purposes.

That's why both intentionally weak but more importantly good grips and strong enough muscles to hold on to the disc long enough is important to master in more advanced stages of learning. It's not a basic skill by any means. I mean how many people start playing with a grip strong and sound enough to allow 500'+ throws?

 

[Blake_T1]

Could adjusting your grip change the speed/spin ratio? Almost like the difference between a pitcher's change-up and their fastball: same arm angle, same power into the throw, but the grip changes the amount of power transferred to the ball (or disc, in our case). I'm not stating this as fact or anything (I don't like to change my power/smash factor unless I absolutely have to, then I normally mess it up), but I think it's good conjecture.

people here are going down the wrong path with this. the use of the term "ratio" is a case and point of it.

JR's description also doesn't involve changing the ratio.

what you are trying to manipulate here doesn't really happen ceteris paribus.

When the arm is already at some pace the spin isn't gonna occur fully with the thumb lock not rotating around the edge of the disc.

the speed won't occur either, so the ratio will remain similar (if it changes, it does so by a smaller amount than is being envisioned). spin decreases but so does speed.

spin can be plotted mathematically to show it has some effect on stability and lift, but nose down, velocity, force, and disc weight are still the dominant factors. take a sidewinder as an example. that disc will turn with 2 degrees nose down at like 30 mph (~240' power). the average thrower generates between 8-15 RPS on the disc, and it will turn with anything in that range. assuming that if spin were increased while nose down and velocity remained the same... there's some calculation to figure that out... but what would it take? 50 RPS? is that even possible? take someone like masterbeato who throws 10 degrees nose down and 70mph... 200 RPS for a stable flight? it seems much easier to manipulate nose angle or velocity or disc selection.

i don't think people can manipulate spin while maintaining velocity and nose angles to such an extent where it yields a very noticeable difference in flight.

i also think that when people think they are changing spin, they are also changing 2-3 other factors along with it...

 

[JR]

Slips can drop spin rate quicker in percentage than speed thus speed vs spin ratio would change. Increasing spin rate beyond correctly timed muscled wrist opening coinciding with post elbow straight wrist opening, stopping the wrist faster and increasing pressure on thumb lock is impossible to my current knowledge.

I disagree with some of what Blake wrote because of the measurements of Öystein Carlsen. His test subjects got at best 10 % increase in linear back to front speed of the disc from the wrist opening and disc pivot in the thumb lock with a maximum of 40 % increase in spin rate of the disc. This means that a worse case of slip than my top down vid showed of not having any opening of the wrist would have the disc moving at about 90 % speed producing about 60 % of maximum available. These maximum values and resulting maximum values of pror to wrist opening values were measured out of real throws by good throwers.

Conjecture part: If a semi competent throw with some opening of the wrist but not a full disc pivot occurred the numbers would be something like 93 % speed 70 % spin. Assuming 180 degree rotation of thumb lock around the disc edge like Bradley Walker suggested. If there was a full wrist opening and the disc micro slipped at say 1 o'clock one would lose out a third of the spin rate increase available and some percents of the speed increase I can't estimate. That would produce something like perhaps 94-98 % speed with 86 % spin rate out of maximum. Retard the rip to 2 o'clock and you get a percentile or two more linear speed and 1/6 of that 40 % spin rate increase vs 1 o'clock rip. The same goes for 2 o'clock vs 3 o'clock.

There is a great if in my calculation. I haven't checked lately and don't remember how much the thumb lock moved for those throwers that were measured so the numbers could change. I don't see how the situation would change in speed to spin ratio shifting toward speed dominant when the disc doesn't pivot fully and/or the wrist doesn't open fully. While still moving at 90 % of maximum linear speed which IMO ain't really losing that much considering the longest throws are to my knowledge dominated by spin rather than speed. Relatively speaking of which most players can gain easiest vs the best throwers in the world. If snapping hard was easy it would be 2 % players hadn't big snap instead of the other way around.

That is why I state that speed is available even without a lot of spin. Which is why speed to spin ratio can change and it's easier to handicap spin by not using the wrist well or allowing the disc to slip prior to full disc pivot. Only if adding spin to speed ratio to full powered throws were so easy.

It is possible to reduce speed and get a much higher amount of spin relative to speed by shortening the reach back and retarding the onset of hard acceleration of the arm. It does have real world dg applications such as avoiding flipping and lessening fade for some discs, not speedy ones, like in penetrating gaps and driving with putters and longest mid flights.

Could adjusting your grip change the speed/spin ratio? Almost like the difference between a pitcher's change-up and their fastball: same arm angle, same power into the throw, but the grip changes the amount of power transferred to the ball (or disc, in our case). I'm not stating this as fact or anything (I don't like to change my power/smash factor unless I absolutely have to, then I normally mess it up), but I think it's good conjecture.

people here are going down the wrong path with this. the use of the term "ratio" is a case and point of it.

JR's description also doesn't involve changing the ratio.

what you are trying to manipulate here doesn't really happen ceteris paribus.

When the arm is already at some pace the spin isn't gonna occur fully with the thumb lock not rotating around the edge of the disc.

the speed won't occur either, so the ratio will remain similar (if it changes, it does so by a smaller amount than is being envisioned). spin decreases but so does speed.

spin can be plotted mathematically to show it has some effect on stability and lift, but nose down, velocity, force, and disc weight are still the dominant factors. take a sidewinder as an example. that disc will turn with 2 degrees nose down at like 30 mph (~240' power). the average thrower generates between 8-15 RPS on the disc, and it will turn with anything in that range. assuming that if spin were increased while nose down and velocity remained the same... there's some calculation to figure that out... but what would it take? 50 RPS? is that even possible? take someone like masterbeato who throws 10 degrees nose down and 70mph... 200 RPS for a stable flight? it seems much easier to manipulate nose angle or velocity or disc selection.

i don't think people can manipulate spin while maintaining velocity and nose angles to such an extent where it yields a very noticeable difference in flight.

i also think that when people think they are changing spin, they are also changing 2-3 other factors along with it...

 

[Blake_T1]

I disagree with some of what Blake wrote because of the measurements of Öystein Carlsen. His test subjects got at best 10 % increase in linear back to front speed of the disc from the wrist opening and disc pivot in the thumb lock with a maximum of 40 % increase in spin rate of the disc. This means that a worse case of slip than my top down vid showed of not having any opening of the wrist would have the disc moving at about 90 % speed producing about 60 % of maximum available. These maximum values and resulting maximum values of pror to wrist opening values were measured out of real throws by good throwers.

how were they calculating "speed." launch velocity of the disc or arm speed?
40% rotational decrease is still within the 8-15 RPS bounds i laid out earlier, which don't yield significant flight changes. any times slips get referenced, there's a large trade off in transferred energy to the disc and accuracy issues. most of the euro guys lever the disc in a manner that the angular velocity of the outer edge (and the massive acceleration of that) is transferred to the disc.

Conjecture part: If a semi competent throw with some opening of the wrist but not a full disc pivot occurred the numbers would be something like 93 % speed 70 % spin. Assuming 180 degree rotation of thumb lock around the disc edge like Bradley Walker suggested. If there was a full wrist opening and the disc micro slipped at say 1 o'clock one would lose out a third of the spin rate increase available and some percents of the speed increase I can't estimate. That would produce something like perhaps 94-98 % speed with 86 % spin rate out of maximum. Retard the rip to 2 o'clock and you get a percentile or two more linear speed and 1/6 of that 40 % spin rate increase vs 1 o'clock rip. The same goes for 2 o'clock vs 3 o'clock.

the "average" disc golfer releases around 12:30 with big arms closer to 2 o'clock. spin is better manipulated through grip strength (often a simple grip style change will yield this) without reducing much disc velocity nor nose angle or trajectory.

IMO ain't really losing that much considering the longest throws are to my knowledge dominated by spin rather than speed.

they are speed dominant. discs slow down in forward velocity faster than the decrease in rotational velocity. the ability to hold a high speed disc turned and nose down 60' in the air beyond 500' requires a tremendous amount of velocity and the late-flight momentum glide is very dependent upon velocity.

i'm not saying that spin doesn't have some effect on flight, just that i don't think it has as much as people would think it does. it's mainly evident on throws that involve low velocity, where you can manipulate the ratios a lot more. throws near max power require absurd amounts of spin (or removed spin) to see a noticeable change.

99% of the time when people think they're doing something with spin they are actually doing it with nose angles and velocity.

 

[JR]

I agree that in most cases slips aren't a desireable goal by any means for the reasons you mentioned.

They did not calculate speed they used several high speed cameras shooting at 280 FPS measuring velocities both linear back to front speeds and angular velocities. Velocities were measured from several places including elbow, wrist, center of the back of the hand and center of the disc. Without rereading I can't say that my recollection is accurate but I seem to have an impression that one measurement was from the disc edge measuring angular velocity. They separated disc, hand and wrist speed from each other.

The test subjects were European and the massive acceleration of the levering you talked of (plus simultaneous torso an leg action) was measured to add 10% back to front speed to the disc. Leg action measurements weren't presented. Some years later one of the test subjects was seen by man_utenbart from DGR to throw a slow anny to 460' landing anny. Sounds spin dominant to me.

You misquoted me by snipping a sentence out of context. I was talking about Joe average no big snap getting _relatively_ closer to pro disc speeds easier than to pro spin rates. In absolute terms both categories leave ams lacking big time in most cases. I too mentioned earlier that speed to spin manipulation is doable at low speeds and not so well at full power.

From personal experience I have seen more HSS less LSS flights with less slipping. In different stages with differing magnitude changes as I've progressed and jumped to different distance plateaus. I haven't been filmed at high speed recently after grip improvements that allowed an 10-12' high line drive with a new DX 175 Valkyrie to go 400' with 3' fade and an inch or two of tracking in no winds. Prior to grip change the highest spin rate on film from me was 17 revolutions per second with 16 being the usual best. Prior to the grip and power change that little fade with a Valk was impossible for me to achieve with current form. Other discs fly straighter as well.

I've seen Jussi Meresmaa throw 360s from few feet away on two occasions and the latest grip change has allowed my flights look equally little fading at about the same speeds. Except his throws start to fade a lot farther down the range With previous grips my discs started to fade at visibly much higher speeds than Jussi's. We used the same disc model and plastic and probably the same weight as well. I think my previous grips have prevented disc pivot. I'm curious to see what my current spin rate and disc speed is. I'm keeping my fingers crossed about mafa's video camera still working. It had some hiccups.

I suggested to mafa a couple of players at Tali Open 2009 that I filmed at 300 FPS to be displayed in the same video showing exceptionally visible wrist action. Playback at 29.97 FPS without editing. I don't know the timetable of youtubing because it takes time to edit especially if he decides to edit more than one guy hitting at the same time displayed side by side. Doss and Europeans. So that "euro leverage" is gonna be visible later.