Key factor for power?

[yepphow]

Hi guys, I have been lurking around and read alot of golden threads here on DGCR; but I have not made my own account untill now.

Any way,
As we all know the discgolf drive can be a complex son of a b...., so many links in that chain that has to work; but If you had to choose one key factor from, lets say the backhand drive, where that great power is harvest from, the X factor so to say - what would that factor be?

Sure it would be speed, but let's dig deeper

The plant? - the ability to stop that forward momentum.

The Pull? - the ability to pull against a solid plant

The hips? - in what way? Rotational?

The shoulders?

Lateral or rotational?

The spin of the disc? - even superman would need spin on the disc to make it fly

Flexibility? Lever?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Balance

 

[yepphow]

Balance how?
Balance in like not falling over or balance in like a balance of all key factors?

 

[tylerc]

With perfect form... the key factor will be the same as ball golf: the X factor. This seems logical in my mind. if two backhands are perfect but one has a larger X factor, he would throw faster (assuming all else is equal).

 

[yepphow]

So where would you say most of that speed is generated?
In the Runup?
Pull?
Rotation?

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

2020 is the year I figure out how to throw a good RHBH consistently. Better late than never. Once winter is done, I'm going to blow up my form and start fresh with putter standstill drives and work my way up like I should have a quarter century ago. (Heck, maybe I'll even do that in the snow.)

My goal is to be able to hang at the top of am masters next year in a handful of local tournaments. I'm thinking accurate and dependable 350' should do it with my decent short game (for an am). If I get better than that from there, awesome, but right now that would be very gratifying.

I haven't played in a sanctioned event since 2006, and really that was just a small blip where I tried getting back into it. 1998-2000 was when I played in a lot of tournaments. I was ten years out of high school baseball and just muscled-up ugly throws to get 300' RHFH's and much worse than that for RHBH's, which felt foreign to me up until about 10 years ago. It's been all casual, just for fun ever since then...

...and then I discovered Jomez about a year ago. The incredible pro footage we have nowadays has inspired me and I crave getting better. I actually DID get better this year despite not starting all the way over. My 300' is smoother and easier after trying some of the things I've seen from Simon Lizotte and Danny Lindahl. My drives aren't (usually) terrible, but I want more. I'm not getting any younger either.

So...good question, O.P. I hope to discover the things that will make it click and finally get my core and lower body translating energy to the Disc properly. Cheers to all the rest of you in this journey too!

 

[RFrance]

Balance

...and Rhythm in the pendulum swing.

 

[ALT-J]

So where would you say most of that speed is generated?
In the Runup?
Pull?
Rotation?

A proper hit is what accelerates the disc most. Thats why you see pros throw their upshots so effortlessly in that 250 range. They eliminate as many moving parts as possible and rely on the hit to carry the disc. Most of the arm speed is generated by your body and hips but arm speed is secondary if the disc slips before the hit. Its really not as complicated as this forum section may make it seem. Just learn to swing your loose(!!) arm back and forth and the weight shift, brace, rotation you name it will happen. You already do all those unconsciously when playing tennis, football, baseball, hockey..... The trick is to let the arm swing freely and make it your bat/stick

 

[ALT-J]

Balance how?
Balance in like not falling over or balance in like a balance of all key factors?

Body balance. Operating as close to your center of gravity as possible at all times. Thats explosive power similar to punching. You stay balanced throughout the throwing sequence by doing most of the reach back with turning your hips. Very centered, compact and powerful position. Most of us ams reach back with arm and upper body and its off balance. Most of the energy will be spent on not falling over. Try to punch with using your upper body and arm only and then do a normal punch. That is the difference balance will make in every athletic motion

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Balance how?
Balance in like not falling over or balance in like a balance of all key factors?

Yes to all of it.

You can't focus on one single aspect of the sequence. Whichever part is off becomes the most important part because that is what is holding one back. The whole package needs to be balanced to maximize the throw.

As well physical balance is really critical to getting everything lined up and working together properly. Sure it is possible to huck a disc really far all way out of balance, flinging the whole body around, but with zero idea where the disc is going. Even if you look at someone like James Conrad who might look out of balance, broken down and in slow motion he has great balance through the throw then that awkward lanky follow through.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

I do not believe the most important factor in 'power' is balance.

'Timing' is the answer. Solid balance enables 'good timing' though.

 

[Jay Dub]

I don't think there's a key factor to anything disc golf. It's many little things coming together at the right time.
If there was one key factor for distance everyone would be throwing 500' but it's not that easy.

 

[bsammons]

I don't have perfect form.
But dang I'm throwing twice as far for the effort once I learned proper arm positioning and the feel of the hit.

DD's 450+ right now for what it's worth but still working!

 

[yepphow]

I don't think there's a key factor to anything disc golf. It's many little things coming together at the right time.
If there was one key factor for distance everyone would be throwing 500' but it's not that easy.

Maybe more people would throw 500 ft if we understood the key factor(s) and how to unlock them.
I do belive certain things will let you add more power than other through out the chain, those factors are what I am searching for... if that makes sense.

 

[yepphow]

I don't have perfect form.
But dang I'm throwing twice as far for the effort once I learned proper arm positioning and the feel of the hit.

DD's 450+ right now for what it's worth but still working!

Will that feel for the hit let you add power to it?

 

[bsammons]

I think, at least with me but I feel with most anyone, is 85% of the problem with form is because of a fundamental issue. I was fundamentally gripping, releasing, and moving the disc wrong with my arm. The power I was trying to get was snapping it short of the arm finish when the release should happen with a swing through to the finish. Once I figured that out, and trusted it, I had several small "ah ha" moments and began tweaking it to the point of maximum power and consistency. Prior to this I was throwing drivers 400-500 with absolutely no form, I'm no freak athlete but I've had my share of high level competition in high school and am currently in college, so that kind of thing may not happen for some. But once you find out where the power and swing comes from, the rest falls into place. So TLDR, yes, I can rip it wide open now, and yes, it's smashing compared to my previous method.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Maybe more people would throw 500 ft if we understood the key factor(s) and how to unlock them.
I do belive certain things will let you add more power than other through out the chain, those factors are what I am searching for... if that makes sense.

Which piece of a jigsaw puzzle is the most important?

Sure it is nice to have all the edges and the corners are a good place to start, but that is partly because they are easy to pick out of the mess and get you started. If the puzzle is a single subject on a swirly background then most of the pieces that show the object seem more important than the backgound stuff. You will see the picture, it seems like the point, but without all the pieces the puzzle is not complete.

There are parts of the throw that maybe are more important, but there is not a single silver bullet. Not in DG and not in any sport.

One thing I've seen a bit here, but a lot more in some other sports is people asking about very specific muscle building. Same thing as trying to find the one part of the throw that is responsible for power. You need all the parts together.

The kinetic chain. Which link in the chain is the most important? There is just so much of the swing that you can't have one part properly without another.

The most important piece of a jigsaw puzzle is the one you are missing.
The most important part of a chain is the broken link.

One of the biggest hurdles in developing form comes from regression as we as individuals try and fix an issue and something else breaks in the process. Looking for or concentrating on just one part as the MOST important will hold you in that point of regression where we KNOW we are better than what we are producing and we KNOW we are doing this part we've been working on better than we were 6 months or a year ago...

If you really want a silver bullet? I guess Monkey Arms. There is a lot of issues that can be compensated for with silly long levers.

 

[tylerc]

So where would you say most of that speed is generated?
In the Runup?
Pull?
Rotation?

Speed is generated from run up + plant/ weight shift + lower body rotation + pull + upper body rotation + arm snap. Note that each one sets up the body for the next speed addition. It is most important to have each ending in the correct spot, they dont need to have much speed added individually. I would be interested to know exactly which have the most speed added.

 

[ALT-J]

I do not believe the most important factor in 'power' is balance.

'Timing' is the answer. Solid balance enables 'good timing' though.

You cant have good timing with poor balance. So there is no good timing without balance. Its a cumulative thing as you say. So which one is more important?

Personally I'd also love to see people open their terms more on this forum. What do you mean by timing? I think everyone has their own vague definitions in their minds but its a complex term in this context. Its not really enlightening to read a one liner where you dont explain what you mean.

For me timing is a poor term in disc golf. You have 20 things in your mind when you throw and try consciously to make them work in correct order. That is doomed to fail. Thats the mental image I get from the word timing. Its more of a sequence thing. You do something right from the get go and good things follow automatically. I dont have to time anything.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

You cant have good timing with poor balance. So there is no good timing without balance. Its a cumulative thing as you say. So which one is more important?

Personally I'd also love to see people open their terms more on this forum. What do you mean by timing? I think everyone has their own vague definitions in their minds but its a complex term in this context. Its not really enlightening to read a one liner where you dont explain what you mean.

For me timing is a poor term in disc golf. You have 20 things in your mind when you throw and try consciously to make them work in correct order. That is doomed to fail. Thats the mental image I get from the word timing. Its more of a sequence thing. You do something right from the get go and good things follow automatically. I dont have to time anything.

A bit pedantic my friend, but whatever, You (and likely everyone else) understood exactly what I was trying to say without the need for further elaboration/qualification. So semantics, sch-mantics.

Thinking about things in parts is very useful, but little in real life actually occurs in parts (some philosophers claim ALL boundaries are arbitrary, particularly the ones invented by the human mind). The 'no-mind' phenomena you speak of is the entire riddle of the game from my understanding of it, so when training/learning I have often found it helpful to focus on the process of improvement. Integration of learned skills into refined tangible results is part of that process...but again, whatever...maybe the question was posed in a stupid manner...as the real 'most important thing for power' is DESIRE - without that nothing happens...at least not a powerful stroke/throw in disc golf anyway...