League format

[ballgolfconvert]

Ok. I went and played a handicap league this weekend. The league is fairly new and many players are still establishing handicaps so their is a scratch division for establishing players and a handicap division for those who have already established. as it should be.

However, when they gave out the winnings they combined the scratch scores and the net scores into one pool and paid out accordingly. Scratch scores won 1st, 2nd and 3rd and net scores won 4th and 5th place. I don't necessarily have a problem with this, but it is something i have never seen in my life. Normally you would have a 1st place net and a 1st place scratch and so on. Has anyone ever played or run a league where the net and scratch scores are combined into one pool? FYI, I wouldn't have won either way.

 

[BillFleming]

Nope. League I play pays out 1 place for best "natural" score. That is the largest payout and that person is eliminated from the handicap winnings. Then, handicap payouts are based on the number of players.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Both formats above must be run by the better players to force higher payouts to the winner by "taking" from the handicap players. Fairer format is each pool, scratch and handicap, has separate payouts based on the entry fees paid only into its field. But if the players in the above format are willing to enter, more power to those organizers.

 

[Improbably]

Ok. I went and played a handicap league this weekend. The league is fairly new and many players are still establishing handicaps so their is a scratch division for establishing players and a handicap division for those who have already established. as it should be.

However, when they gave out the winnings they combined the scratch scores and the net scores into one pool and paid out accordingly. Scratch scores won 1st, 2nd and 3rd and net scores won 4th and 5th place. I don't necessarily have a problem with this, but it is something i have never seen in my life. Normally you would have a 1st place net and a 1st place scratch and so on. Has anyone ever played or run a league where the net and scratch scores are combined into one pool? FYI, I wouldn't have won either way.

Was the scratch division ONLY for players lacking an established handicap?

I played in a league years ago where players without an established cap could pay a full entry, $5, to compete as if their cap was 0. The league used two establishing rounds so a player only had this option twice and only on their first two rounds. Otherwise the player could play their two establishing rounds for a $2 entry.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I keep it much simpler. I run an averages league. You have to have 2 rounds on the course prior to league established which means it must be witnessed by at least 2 other people. Or the 2 rounds can be from a prior tournament at the course or prior league rounds. Then, everyone is just playing against their established average and whoever beats their average the best in terms of percent is the winner for the night. Usually, the newer players win and it encourages people to improve. I've had people straight up tell me they are going to sandbag for a few weeks to bump up their average and game the system and I was like, "good luck with that" and I have never seen someone succeed. The weekly scores are figured into the averages so they change from week to week.

So say my average is 55.4 and my score for the night is 53 that means I beat my average by 4.33%

But then a newbie comes along with a average of 67 and scores a 60 so that means they beat their average by 10.44% which means they won.

Whats rather amazing to me is how hard everyone tries every week to beat their average which means everyone is trying to improve which is exactly what I want. With a few exceptions sandbagging is rare. I looked into doing handicaps and for my purposes I think those add a layer of complexity that just isn't worth calculating nor explaining to players who are completely unfamiliar with handicaps. Most disc golfers I know have zero experience with golf much less a golf league.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Was the scratch division ONLY for players lacking an established handicap?

I played in a league years ago where players without an established cap could pay a full entry, $5, to compete as if their cap was 0. The league used two establishing rounds so a player only had this option twice and only on their first two rounds. Otherwise the player could play their two establishing rounds for a $2 entry.

That is most likely it and that explanation makes sense. We will see how it develops. BTW The league is played from the short tees and there are quite a few double digit below par rounds each week, giving a big advantage to the advanced players establishing handicaps.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I keep it much simpler. I run an averages league. You have to have 2 rounds on the course prior to league established which means it must be witnessed by at least 2 other people. Or the 2 rounds can be from a prior tournament at the course or prior league rounds. Then, everyone is just playing against their established average and whoever beats their average the best in terms of percent is the winner for the night. Usually, the newer players win and it encourages people to improve. I've had people straight up tell me they are going to sandbag for a few weeks to bump up their average and game the system and I was like, "good luck with that" and I have never seen someone succeed. The weekly scores are figured into the averages so they change from week to week.

So say my average is 55.4 and my score for the night is 53 that means I beat my average by 4.33%

But then a newbie comes along with a average of 67 and scores a 60 so that means they beat their average by 10.44% which means they won.

Whats rather amazing to me is how hard everyone tries every week to beat their average which means everyone is trying to improve which is exactly what I want. With a few exceptions sandbagging is rare. I looked into doing handicaps and for my purposes I think those add a layer of complexity that just isn't worth calculating nor explaining to players who are completely unfamiliar with handicaps. Most disc golfers I know have zero experience with golf much less a golf league.

They must not have must experience in math either. Your method is slanted toward players with lower average scores. A guy who shoots 49 beats his 50 average by a stroke or beats by 2%. A guy who averages 65 and shoots 64 one shot below only beats his average by 1.53%. If the lower average player beats his average by 4 shots, he will still beat the higher average player who beats his average by 5 shots. 8% to 7.65%. I'm sorry but that doesn't strike me as very fair. It would be every easy for you to convert those averages into handicaps with a decimal point and eliminate the obvious unfairness.

 

[davetherocketguy]

They must not have must experience in math either. Your method is slanted toward players with lower average scores. A guy who shoots 49 beats his 50 average by a stroke or beats by 2%. A guy who averages 65 and shoots 64 one shot below only beats his average by 1.53%. If the lower average player beats his average by 4 shots, he will still beat the higher average player who beats his average by 5 shots. 8% to 7.65%. I'm sorry but that doesn't strike me as very fair. It would be every easy for you to convert those averages into handicaps with a decimal point and eliminate the obvious unfairness.

Reality does not bear this out. Usually those with higher averages are the winners. The reason for this is if you have a 48 average its much more difficult to shave 2 strokes off your score (4.17% reduction) than for a player with a 70 average to shave 3 strokes (4.29%) off of their score. Thing is, those with higher averages have far more erratic results than those with lower averages who tend to be more consistent. They can go from 70 one week to 63 the next. So if anything at worst my system rewards inconsistency.

It's worked out pretty well so far and other than you I've never had anyone complain about it being unfair. Come out and play a few weeks and you'll see what I am talking about.

-Dave

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Reality does not bear this out. Usually those with higher averages are the winners. The reason for this is if you have a 48 average its much more difficult to shave 2 strokes off your score (4.17% reduction) than for a player with a 70 average to shave 3 strokes (4.29%) off of their score. Thing is, those with higher averages have far more erratic results than those with lower averages who tend to be more consistent. They can go from 70 one week to 63 the next. So if anything at worst my system rewards inconsistency.

It's worked out pretty well so far and other than you I've never had anyone complain about it being unfair. Come out and play a few weeks and you'll see what I am talking about.

-Dave

Fair enough.

 

[autocrosscrx]

The average thing is pretty neat for the casual player.

You ever have days where no one beats their average?

 

[davetherocketguy]

The average thing is pretty neat for the casual player.

You ever have days where no one beats their average?

We have. There was a day where winds were howling and everyone was struggling. So what we do then is just whoever does the best in respect to their average in terms of percent is the winner.

 

[uncle pennybags]

I play a handicapped league here. IT's run by a math teacher who has the big spreadsheet for the thing, so many numbers!

But we've had nights where someone shot -8 and tied for first with a handicapped player.

On our course if you get too good you go up to the longer tee pads. Things even out at that point.

 

[ru4por]

In our handicap leagues, I believe they all make use of the handicap program on Disc Golf Scene. I makes is simple, just plug in scores.

 

[davetherocketguy]

In our handicap leagues, I believe they all make use of the handicap program on Disc Golf Scene. I makes is simple, just plug in scores.

Waaaaiiiiittt a minute...I might use that this year...hmmmm

 

[ru4por]

Waaaaiiiiittt a minute...I might use that this year...hmmmm

i do not use it in my league...I run a straight up raw score league. But my club (Ann Arbor Area Disc--A3) has a couple handicap leagues and they both use DGS. It is said to be super easy and obviously is a great reporting and league tool otherwise.

 

[Improbably]

In our handicap leagues, I believe they all make use of the handicap program on Disc Golf Scene. I makes is simple, just plug in scores.

I can't find anything about handicap leagues on The Disc Golf Scene website...

 

[ru4por]

I can't find anything about handicap leagues on The Disc Golf Scene website...

Looks like you have to be a league owner or admin to access the league handicap functionality.

 

[DatRedDude]

I ran a handicap league until i didn't have time anymore and it was the original league my club ran starting in 89.

Had to have 2 rounds to establish a handicap, the first week you were not eligible for payouts and only paid into ace and club funds. 1$ for each.

Handicap leagues do not favor better players in my experience and we used it in our club to attract newer players. The better player is going to shoot on average the same relative score every week. The newer player is going to shoot high one week a career low the next week and this will repeat thru out the season. I rarely cashed in my own league but i understood the league wasn't geared towards me.

we paid out PDGA standards for net scores based on participants and 5$ for low gross score

i have an excel spreadsheet with all the formulas so its just plug and play and print out for next week.

 

[ru4por]

I ran a handicap league until i didn't have time anymore and it was the original league my club ran starting in 89.

Had to have 2 rounds to establish a handicap, the first week you were not eligible for payouts and only paid into ace and club funds. 1$ for each.

Handicap leagues do not favor better players in my experience and we used it in our club to attract newer players. The better player is going to shoot on average the same relative score every week. The newer player is going to shoot high one week a career low the next week and this will repeat thru out the season. I rarely cashed in my own league but i understood the league wasn't geared towards me.

we paid out PDGA standards for net scores based on participants and 5$ for low gross score

i have an excel spreadsheet with all the formulas so its just plug and play and print out for next week.

This is very close to how we run our handicap leagues. I would guess it is a similar template to most.

I agree. In my experience playing handicap leagues, newer player seem to do well, over vet players.

We started these leagues with excel spreadsheets and formula. Once DGS put out a handicap functionality and we were inputting scores for public view anyway....well, it just became too easy to not use. Now if they would just integrate PDGA sanctioning into DGS. Put the scores in once.

 

[DatRedDude]

This is very close to how we run our handicap leagues. I would guess it is a similar template to most.

I agree. In my experience playing handicap leagues, newer player seem to do well, over vet players.

We started these leagues with excel spreadsheets and formula. Once DGS put out a handicap functionality and we were inputting scores for public view anyway....well, it just became too easy to not use. Now if they would just integrate PDGA sanctioning into DGS. Put the scores in once.

i will have to look into this as i was not aware dgs had this feature