New League Coordinator Questions

[XC_Eddy]

Hello all! In about a month I'm going to start running a new singles league. We've had league before, but it didn't happen during 2020, the club was looking for someone to run it, and I volunteered to do it if I could do it the way that works best for me/what I prefer.

In the past our league has been a flex start situation: Show up any time between 4-6, card up with friends/whoever is there, and turn your card in when you are done. As someone who would just sometimes show up, I'd have to wait 30-45 minutes at times for a card to form. Sometimes a group of 4 would show up and all want to play together and I'd have to keep waiting. Leads to cliquish behavior and doesn't foster the same sense of community that everyone showing up at the same time does. I also don't want to check people in for two hours and be out at the course for 5+ hours total. All that to say: I am running it; we're getting rid of the flex start.

So my question for those of you who have either coordinated or participated in singles leagues with a uniform start time: Do you have randomized cards or do you let people card up with who they want and let things kinda just happen how they happen? Any advice is appreciated.

Other notes about the league I'd like feedback on:

-Planning to sanction with the PDGA so we can use their insurance (the city requires this and the alternative is paying $1600 for insurance ourselves). Anyone have experience with a sanctioned league?

-Planning on $5 Buy-in. $0.50 to PDGA, $0.50 to club for course maintenance, $1 towards CTP prizes, $3 to payout. Pay out 40% of the field using the PDGA event payout calculator.

-No Handicap (we'd done handicap in the past). Replace it with two divisions: Advanced and Rec. If someone wins Rec three times they have to move up. I'm also considering taking $0.50 or $1 from each rec entry fee and putting it in the advanced pool as an incentive to get people to play in the advanced pool.

-Just applied with Udisc to be a Udisc League. Save me some hunting down of scorecards. Anyone have experience with this? How did it go? Is it a pain in the butt to make everyone have a Udisc account?

-Our Course only has a couple holes that an ace is realistic for most of the field. Instead of an ace pot I'm thinking of doing a birdie pot. Drawing or RNGing 3 holes: if you birdie all 3 you get the pot. Any of you do that before, how did it go?

-Are there other things done in your league that you would recommend?

 

[davetherocketguy]

I can answer some of your questions...

I am running it; we're getting rid of the flex start.

Good. Flex starts for leagues is dumb IMHO unless you have someone willing to burn up hours every week

So my question for those of you who have either coordinated or participated in singles leagues with a uniform start time: Do you have randomized cards or do you let people card up with who they want and let things kinda just happen how they happen? Any advice is appreciated.

I usually randomize it as much as possible. The rationale I have is that I want people to get to know each other.

Other notes about the league I'd like feedback on:

-Planning to sanction with the PDGA so we can use their insurance (the city requires this and the alternative is paying $1600 for insurance ourselves). Anyone have experience with a sanctioned league?

PDGA sanctioning is great IMHO. Just remember, you're now obligated to use their rules.

-Planning on $5 Buy-in. $0.50 to PDGA, $0.50 to club for course maintenance, $1 towards CTP prizes, $3 to payout. Pay out 40% of the field using the PDGA event payout calculator.

Our leagues aren't big enough to justify calculating all that out. I usually just payout to the top two spots. I figure between the CTP and LP prizes to hand out that's plenty of goodies for everyone.

-No Handicap (we'd done handicap in the past). Replace it with two divisions: Advanced and Rec. If someone wins Rec three times they have to move up. I'm also considering taking $0.50 or $1 from each rec entry fee and putting it in the advanced pool as an incentive to get people to play in the advanced pool.

-Just applied with Udisc to be a Udisc League. Save me some hunting down of scorecards. Anyone have experience with this? How did it go? Is it a pain in the butt to make everyone have a Udisc account?

I have not heard good things about uDisc. Personally I really like the PDGA Live Scoring for leagues. If you use uDisc and are a PDGA league then that means you're doing a bunch of data entry into the PDGA site where if you just use live scoring the scores are already entered at the end of the rounds.

-Our Course only has a couple holes that an ace is realistic for most of the field. Instead of an ace pot I'm thinking of doing a birdie pot. Drawing or RNGing 3 holes: if you birdie all 3 you get the pot. Any of you do that before, how did it go?

-Are there other things done in your league that you would recommend?

A birdie pot is going to get cleaned out often - but I suppose that depends on the course. My preference is stick with an ace pot...YMMV

 

[XC_Eddy]

I can answer some of your questions...



Good. Flex starts for leagues is dumb IMHO unless you have someone willing to burn up hours every week



I usually randomize it as much as possible. The rationale I have is that I want people to get to know each other.



PDGA sanctioning is great IMHO. Just remember, you're now obligated to use their rules.



Our leagues aren't big enough to justify calculating all that out. I usually just payout to the top two spots. I figure between the CTP and LP prizes to hand out that's plenty of goodies for everyone.



I have not heard good things about uDisc. Personally I really like the PDGA Live Scoring for leagues. If you use uDisc and are a PDGA league then that means you're doing a bunch of data entry into the PDGA site where if you just use live scoring the scores are already entered at the end of the rounds.



A birdie pot is going to get cleaned out often - but I suppose that depends on the course. My preference is stick with an ace pot...YMMV

That's all very helpful. Gonna hit these point by point but without the fancy quote thing you did.

Good to receive some validation on nixing the flex start and card choosing. I'm hoping randomizing cards helps foster a much needed sense of community. The cliquish BS is very real here and needs to die. How have you randomized cards? Use a deck of cards like is often done for dubs?

Using the PDGA's rules for sanctioning is just fine by me. Their rules are pretty clear, and then we don't have to figure out our own rules.

When you say that your leagues aren't big enough to calculate that all out, how big are your leagues? I'm expecting probably 10-15 in each division. Maybe paying out top 2 or 3 makes more sense. I like the depth on the PDGA scale, but if there's like 7 people in each division then it gets pretty silly.

I was not aware that PDGA live scoring existed. I was hoping that the PDGA and Udisc partnership that exists might save me the data transfer. Now I'm off to research the PDGA live scoring and tournament manager stuff. I imagine that the data entry would take some time otherwise.

 

[davetherocketguy]

That's all very helpful. Gonna hit these point by point but without the fancy quote thing you did.

Good to receive some validation on nixing the flex start and card choosing. I'm hoping randomizing cards helps foster a much needed sense of community. The cliquish BS is very real here and needs to die. How have you randomized cards? Use a deck of cards like is often done for dubs?

Actually...and take this with a grain of salt cause I am rather anal about some of this stuff...I have a system of printing out player cards for each player just like you'd see at a tourney scoreboard. I also have blanks for newcomers. That's what I shuffle.

Using the PDGA's rules for sanctioning is just fine by me. Their rules are pretty clear, and then we don't have to figure out our own rules.

When you say that your leagues aren't big enough to calculate that all out, how big are your leagues? I'm expecting probably 10-15 in each division. Maybe paying out top 2 or 3 makes more sense. I like the depth on the PDGA scale, but if there's like 7 people in each division then it gets pretty silly.

That's about the size I usually have. So payouts are usually 75% of the available pot goes to 1st and then 25% to second.

I was not aware that PDGA live scoring existed. I was hoping that the PDGA and Udisc partnership that exists might save me the data transfer. Now I'm off to research the PDGA live scoring and tournament manager stuff. I imagine that the data entry would take some time otherwise.

Bruh...Live scoring is the way to go. The biggest challenge is getting people to actually use it. It can be glitchy now and then but the majority of the issues I've had to with it have more to do with the players than anything else. You'll get a lot of "Why can't we just use uDisc?" complaints but I usually tell those folks that unless they want to do the data entry at the end of league this is what we're doing. I'd suggest having a players meeting prior to the first round of using it and making sure everyone has the scoring loaded and ready to go.

And don't forget, even with live scoring you still have to provide an alternate method of scoring so bring some scorecards with you just in case. Every now and then you'll get a group where not one of them has a phone and/or internet connection.

 

[Hampstead]

Until Covid is gone, I don't want to play with strangers. If you can't pick your card, I wouldn't want to play the league. Pre-2020 was a different story.

 

[XC_Eddy]

Until Covid is gone, I don't want to play with strangers. If you can't pick your card, I wouldn't want to play the league. Pre-2020 was a different story.

That is a very good consideration. Being outdoors helps. I still absolutely want to respect anyone who isn't comfortable playing with strangers and accommodate as possible. I've been quite careful, but have started to loosen up now that I'm vaccinated.

 

[Keokuk Discer]

Here's what our league does (your mileage may vary).

We randomize the cards until half way through the year. At that point, we flight out divisions (usually three) and then put players on cards according to their ranking in the flighted division that they are in. This encourages people to play each week.

We charge $6 to pay: $1 goes to the league, $1 to ace fund and the rest goes into a pot to be divided into payouts at the end of the season. Depending on the number of people playing, we usually pay out three places in each division for everyone that have score cards for each week. If you can't make it either of the two nights we play, (Sunday mornings or Friday nights) then you can play a make up round as long as you have another league member with you. This works pretty go for us, with 20 to 30 people in the running each year.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[davetherocketguy]

You know...there are so many different ways to do a league. Ya just have to find what works for you and your community as there is sometimes no right or wrong answer. I hope my input was helpful.

 

[Dcinmd]

One issue I have seen pop up on Flex start weekday league that are PDGA sanctions is that the early card will finish and the later cards will be caught in storm and not able to finish.

It make for an awkward cancellation with complaint for the lucky person shooting a hot round and not having their rated round counted even though they have finished.

The other issue that can pop up is the later cards running out of daylight.

Getting rid of the Flex start is probably the best call.

 

[ru4por]

You know...there are so many different ways to do a league. Ya just have to find what works for you and your community as there is sometimes no right or wrong answer. I hope my input was helpful.

On the mark here, there are a lot of ways to skin this cat. Our club runs 4-6 leagues. Singles and doubles, sanctioned and non, handicap and not, flex start and not. We keep entry fees to a minimum, by requiring club membership to play. Membership gets you a shirt, disc, local brick and mortar store discount, PDGA membership discount, misc swag and access to our leagues.

My league is a non handicap, non sanctioned singles league. Flex starts are not going to happen in my league. I don't have the time for it. We let cards form organically, with me or my co league coordinator playing on the last card.

We have no payouts, but load the league with CTP's, mystery CTP's and themed giveaways every week. We have procured a bunch of "sponsorship" from area and national businesses. We have celebrated National Hot Dog Day, cooking some dogs after the round for everyone. We have had month long celebrations that allows players extra league points for wearing some stupid and funny stuff. We have had foam airplane glider giveaways and distance contests, free mustard/condiment coupon giveaways, National Blueberry Muffin celebration, where we got Jiffy to give up a bunch of muffin mix. Extra points all season for bringing in some made muffins for the group. National Toilet Paper day, players getting a point for the "sh1ttiest" drive on their card for every hole. We added up the points and players got a free role for every point. Got Bumblebee tuna to send us some free cans of tuna.....yup, National Tuna Day. I think you get the point.

The league is geared toward newer players. We play shorter courses and spend some time teaching rules, technique and etiquette.

We run three other leagues in the summer.
--One very competitive league, non sanctioned singles, players form cards, two CTP and use a flex start. This league has a handicapped division.
--One a sanctioned singles, player pick cards with a flex by permission start. He does flex groups by exception, if at least three players need to get done early. Two CTP's a week and an occasional 5 dollar mystery CTP.
--One non sanctioned doubles league. One course, random draw dubs, weekly CTP's. Payouts are done in this league per PDGA.

We run ace pools at all leagues, we generally start each league out with a couple hundred buck in the ace pools. That brings in some traffic. We only pay out a percentage until players put in three league nights, or so. Some of these ace pool get very large.

I like to think we offer a wide range of choices with out leagues, fitting the wants of most area players. We try to hold a quick meeting a couple times a year to ask the players what they want. We have traveling leagues and a couple that play the same course.

We now have procured a Stanley Cup type trophy that will be our annual league championship award. End of the season tournament bringing all four leagues together for a thank you bash. Tons of CTP's and giveaways, free raffle and competition for your name on the Cup. We also, in the past, had a league party at a local bar. The league picks up a bunch of appetizers and the first round for league players.

It is all about providing a fun, competitive opportunity for our club members.

Lastly, we have two Michigan State Championship berths per league. Awarded as the league coordinators see fit.

We have been discussing starting a women's league. Getting more women into the game is one of our missions.

 

[XC_Eddy]

You know...there are so many different ways to do a league. Ya just have to find what works for you and your community as there is sometimes no right or wrong answer. I hope my input was helpful.

Your input was definitely helpful. You are right that there are many different ways to run a league. I find it beneficial to hear what is working for others in deciding what I believe will work for us.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Your input was definitely helpful. You are right that there are many different ways to run a league. I find it beneficial to hear what is working for others in deciding what I believe will work for us.

Haha there's nothing wrong with copying someone else's good ideas. That's what I do.

 

[Kenny53691]

-No Handicap (we'd done handicap in the past). Replace it with two divisions: Advanced and Rec. If someone wins Rec three times they have to move up. I'm also considering taking $0.50 or $1 from each rec entry fee and putting it in the advanced pool as an incentive to get people to play in the advanced pool.

I was actually thinking about doing something like this at our league. We have a wide skill level of people playing and I'm afraid that the Bag Tags won't be enough over time. Since over half of the people playing probably don't have much of a chance of winning it all.

 

[mojorooks]

I can answer some of your questions...



Good. Flex starts for leagues is dumb IMHO unless you have someone willing to burn up hours every week



I usually randomize it as much as possible. The rationale I have is that I want people to get to know each other.



PDGA sanctioning is great IMHO. Just remember, you're now obligated to use their rules.



Our leagues aren't big enough to justify calculating all that out. I usually just payout to the top two spots. I figure between the CTP and LP prizes to hand out that's plenty of goodies for everyone.



I have not heard good things about uDisc. Personally I really like the PDGA Live Scoring for leagues. If you use uDisc and are a PDGA league then that means you're doing a bunch of data entry into the PDGA site where if you just use live scoring the scores are already entered at the end of the rounds.



A birdie pot is going to get cleaned out often - but I suppose that depends on the course. My preference is stick with an ace pot...YMMV

Our league used Udisc last year and it was tedious to score. This year as long as each player is signed up to Udisc, they just check in under the events tab and the card is created easily with all scores getting posted. It was MUCH easier to use.

I guess handicap is good and bad. It keeps someone that sucks (like me) competitive. Our league does handicap but also rewards the overall winner as well as the winners of the end of season doubles. If the overall winner gets a bigger prize than the handicap winner, it mostly would work the same as the 2 brackets idea suggested.

But I'm just yacking like us rooks do, LOL. Dave and Ru are FAR more experienced.

 

[XC_Eddy]

Our league used Udisc last year and it was tedious to score. This year as long as each player is signed up to Udisc, they just check in under the events tab and the card is created easily with all scores getting posted. It was MUCH easier to use.

I guess handicap is good and bad. It keeps someone that sucks (like me) competitive. Our league does handicap but also rewards the overall winner as well as the winners of the end of season doubles. If the overall winner gets a bigger prize than the handicap winner, it mostly would work the same as the 2 brackets idea suggested.

But I'm just yacking like us rooks do, LOL. Dave and Ru are FAR more experienced.

Handicaps aren't all bad. I do like that keeps everyone competitive. I've also seen someone shoot a course record and not win the week because a novice improved 15 strokes on his average. The other aspect of no handicaps that I like is that anyone can pop in for one week and play. Having to play a couple weeks to get handicaps established is a little annoying. Pros/cons to both for sure. There's a few casual women who will show up and play and they'll have a tough go of it even in rec. They would benefit from having handicaps. If theres enough of them and they want to I'm going to try and do a separate women's division. Not sure if the sanctioned league will let me have their division some weeks and not others, though.

I went through and got the thing all set up on UDisc, but since we are a sanctioned PDGA league I'm leaning towards going with the PDGA Live Scoring instead. Save me some time doing data transfer from Udisc to the PDGA Tournament Manager. First week I'll bring paper scorecards and try to get as many cards as I can doing the PDGA live scoring. After a few weeks I'm hoping to have enough people trained on the live scoring that we can phase paper scoring out.

We're only one week onow and there's some buzz. Our new local course has been up for 3 years and we've never had a singles league with weekly cash payouts. It's been fun being in charge of this project. I've always had opinions about how league was run in the past, and now I get to gently say "I'm running it, so we're doing it this way." Had someone say he wouldn't play if makeup rounds weren't allowed, and had to explain that make up rounds no longer make sense since we aren't doing a flex start, ongoing point series, or handicaps like the previous iteration of singles league that existed a couple of years ago. Felt good to stand by my format decisions.

 

[txmxer]

I joined a local Wednesday night mini this year. Looks like turnout is around 20-30 right now, might grow some, not sure.

Non PDGA. Paper scoring only. Two division Am and advanced. I think if you score well a few times, you will get bumped to advanced. This is all very local and informal, so your division is only applicable to this group.

The buy in is $13 to play with an ace pot and 100% payout as I understand it--the payout is split between Am div and Advanced hence the bumping up if someone is scoring low consistently.

There is also a club fee--you don't have to join, but you get a tee shirt and get a shot at bigger ace pot--something they call a RAV hole (don't know what RAV means). There are 4 per round from what I've seen. Of course any ace counts for the main ace pot.

Shotgun start at 6:30ish. Cards are printed out, names manually entered/randomized, but not mixed between divisions in general, unless they need to fill a card I guess. Not sure how random they are. The guy running it just fills out the cards. Seems to work okay.

Most holes have two tee pads, plus a rec tee marked by a PVC pipe. Most holes also have two baskets. To speed play and give people a decent shot at the ace pot, we play several of the holes from the REC tee, but the basket played varies.

As far as COVID goes, I am fully vaccinated. I mask up to go indoors, but playing DG, I do not. I know there are a lot of anti-vaxxers, so no idea if the people I'm playing with are vaccinated. I wouldn't have joined if it was pre-vax or we weren't seeing a downturn in numbers.

 

[Cgkdisc]

First week I'll bring paper scorecards and try to get as many cards as I can doing the PDGA live scoring. After a few weeks I'm hoping to have enough people trained on the live scoring that we can phase paper scoring out.

You can't phase out paper scorecards in PDGA events from what I understand. You need a backup way to score along with live scoring, presumably paper scorecards.

 

[XC_Eddy]

You can't phase out paper scorecards in PDGA events from what I understand. You need a backup way to score along with live scoring, presumably paper scorecards.

That is correct, you always have to have it available. I hope to have less people use the paper scoring as time goes on.

 

[krupicka]

You can't phase out paper scorecards in PDGA events from what I understand. You need a backup way to score along with live scoring, presumably paper scorecards.

Not quite true. AFAIK Udisc could be the backup way to keep score.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not quite true. AFAIK Udisc could be the backup way to keep score.

I knew that was possible but it's a silly backup option because the primary reason for backup is technical problems with the scorekeeping device whether internet connection, power loss or being dropped in the water. Theoretically, if you have a player in the group with a good memory, would that be sufficient backup, especially when all you need to enter is final scores? I mean many of us regularly track cumulative scores for everyone in our group in relation to par 3 all the time in rec rounds.