Re:Eagle's provisional on 10 r1.
Eagle landed in the hazard, Carter's throw hits Eagles disc, bumps it forward 2 feet, out of hazard.
He cans the big putt when he plays his lie out of the hazard for 5.
He putts a provisional from the out of hazard location. Makes it and it counts it's a 4. He misses it, putts in for a 5 either way.
If he missed the comeback, and it is subsequently a 6, I assume he has to take the score that is deemed to have been played correctly? Otherwise it would be a misplay?
I ask, because it's pretty much been said that playing a provisional is no harm no foul.
Alternatively, Klein had the supposed OB at MVP a couple of years ago where he should have called provisional from the drop zone. It makes sense not to punish KK twice, but technically the drop zone throw was a misplay. Since DG rules debates seem to focus on exact wording, where in the rules was KK's play from the DZ correct and NOT a misplay?
Provisional isn't perfectly "no harm no foul"; there are conditions that need to be met for a provisional and if THOSE are properly followed
then it is likely no foul. Simple ultimate outcome:
Last year KK's play was a misplay, plain and simple. He played a lie and made a throw (albeit after assuming spotter's input was correct); then found out wit was the incorrect lie, so that is a practice throw penalty. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen players PROPERLY say, "That throw is pretty close. Even though the spotter called it OB, I am calling my throw from this DZ a provisional -- in CASE it is not OB. Agreed?" That would have been the right thing.
In Eagle's situation (whether we agree or disagree), he likely wanted to be sure he didn't get a penalty either way. So with two distinct lies he decided to play both, calling one a provisional, playing both out. That is professional AND smart imho. When there are two options for your next throw and you're not sure which is correct, play both and call one a provisional, record both scores, get with TD in the end.
Spotters have NO say in any call. Spotters should not have flags...well, tiny survey flags to mark discs, but no large signaling flags. It is confusing and pointless. They should be taken out of the game.
It's not that spotters have
no say; it's that they cannot make the OFFICIALL RULING -- only the group can. But they have a say in giving input to the players on the card to help them make a ruling. Often times if players are confused, they get up to the spotter and then the conversation go something like this:
P1:Where'd the blue disc land?
S:Right there (pointing)
P1:Hmm, how did it get there?
S: well, it hit that, caught a blank, ricochet there, and rolled XXXXX X'til it stopped there. Then a wave scooted it over about an inch or two ", etc.
P2, P3: given that info I'm gonna call it it ______ (P1), _____ (P2),what about you?
P4: Based on what I've seen on this course and what I saw today, I think ______, regardless of what the spotter is telling us.
So did the spotter have "no say"; He has some say, he just isn't the decision-maker.
The only reason I even asked that question is that spotters on coverage put on such an energetic show with those green and red flags, it appears to be official and part of the production.
After I posed the question, I read that it is up to the group of players to determine in bounds or out of bounds, and the spotter should not take it personal if the players over ride their call.
AND lastly, don't get me started on flags becoming part of the the production. Two issues --1) some places don't have spotter training or at most it is a minimal 3-4 minutes; and 2) I personally wouldn't ever want an official to become part of the production. I spent over 20 years refereeing and umpiring at all levels from little tikes pee-wee leagues all the way up to division 1 college. The best advice & training I received as an official was this: "The best games are when you go out there and call ____ minutes (or innings or periods, etc.), and at the end of the game the players, coaches, & fans never even noticed you were there. That's you doing the best job you can -- because the participants on the field decided the outcome.