Reid's Journey to Backhand Mastery

[UhhNegative]

Hello DGCR,

Background: I've been playing disc golf for about a year now, recording somewhere around 120 rounds in Udisc in that time and definitely playing more that aren't recorded. I get out and do a lot of field work, but I always end up directionless and just throwing because, well, I just love throwing! But now, I'm throwing down the gauntlet and really getting into the nitty gritty of form. My goal with this thread is to throw 400' consistently as that is really all I need to play good golf.

So right now, I'm getting putters out to 240'-275' with an occasional 300' shot here and there (all distances in this thread are Udisc measured). I'm throwing mids between 260-300', and I'll throw Leopards/Teebirds/PDs all around 300-340 depending on the day. Now one day in the field, I had a magical revelation and was throwing PDs, Destroyers, and Terns all out to 350-375 on hyzer/straight lines. It was a magical day, but alas I have not been able to do that since. You probably don't care about all this, but it's good for my records, so without further ado, cut to the videos.

Here's a video from today. I didn't have great throws today, but a lot of these problems I'm seeing are pretty common from all the field work videos I've taken in the past.



The problem I'm having, is that I don't know how to fix these problems. I can see them visually, but I'm having trouble actually making the changes. I've watched pretty much all of Jason's (heavydisc.com) videos, most of Sidewinder's videos, but still I'm having trouble making the changes. I end up focusing on too many things at once when I am trying to fix my form, when I think I need to be focusing on one thing at a time. Biggest things I'm seeing right now:

1) Still not bracing correctly. I tend to roll on the side of my foot when I know I need to go instep->heel. Strangely, I do manage to rotate on my heel, but I'm really not keeping my body braced behind it. Need to straighten out knee.

2) Weird shoulder shrugging. It's easy to see I lower my back shoulder and raise my left shoulder into my chin. It looks really bad, but it doesn't actually feel bad when I'm throwing.

3) Reachback too early/Body leaning back. I know I need to stay more upright. I used to actually reachback excessively but I still reachback too much. It's more of a "turn back" than a reach back. This will help me remain more upright and balanced through the throw.

4) PUNCH THE DAMN ELBOW OUT! I cannot for the life of me get my elbow out. It looks to me during the throw my whole arm lags behind along with my front shoulder. My shoulders are way too open before my arm comes through, making it play catch up with the rest of the motion.

 

[UhhNegative]

I've also done a frame-by-frame analysis.

It's only frame 1 and I'm already leaning back too much. Everything else looks fine to me though.

In frame 2, I've already started reaching back too early. Also leaning back too much.

Frame 3: Here I think my arm is too far back and not out enough, causing me to round. Additionally, I am leaning too far back to remain balanced when I come through with my arm.

Frame 4: I think I get off my back foot well here but my torso is still tilted back a little too much. My arm is still lagging back compared to Paul's.

Frame 5: This one is the real kicker. My arm is so far behind at this point that I'm basically cooked already.

I would post the last two, but I have enough work to do already here.... I'll try and match the picture size better next time too.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Opening too early and weight is out of balance. Open plant/no brace for weight shift from ground up.

Try staying closed more with a wider reachback away from the chest. You never really get turned back either leading with front hip/leg vs ass.

Also look flat footed in the still shots but hard to tell w/long grass invideo too. Get in an athletic posture.

 

[UhhNegative]

Opening too early and weight is out of balance. Open plant/no brace for weight shift from ground up.

Try staying closed more with a wider reachback away from the chest. You never really get turned back either leading with front hip/leg vs ass.

Also look flat footed in the still shots but hard to tell w/long grass invideo too. Get in an athletic posture.

Thanks friend! Yeah I'm seeing those issues too. Sometimes it's hard for me to see when the pros are actually turning the hips back. Are they sometimes not really using hips and just taking advantage of having the disc in the power pocket (for shorter shots)? For example in this video I used for the frame-by-frame Paul never really looks like he gets his ass out (butt wipe) while Schusterick is definitely more pronounced in doing so.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Mostly has to due with their great timing--but angle of shot and line is a big factor to consider when looking at a drive. My anny/roller drives with OS discs look nothing like a hyzer with US molds. (yes im not twisted... I mean that lol)

Small adjustments in footing and shoulder vs arm movement just naturally engaged the hips more and allow for clean power from the ground up.

I wouldn't worry about mimicking any specific xyz form but rather get that "feel" for what works with your body type.

 

[UhhNegative]

Mostly has to due with their great timing--but angle of shot and line is a big factor to consider when looking at a drive. My anny/roller drives with OS discs look nothing like a hyzer with US molds. (yes im not twisted... I mean that lol)

Small adjustments in footing and shoulder vs arm movement just naturally engaged the hips more and allow for clean power from the ground up.

I wouldn't worry about mimicking any specific xyz form but rather get that "feel" for what works with your body type.

True, but I think there are aspects of any drive that should be mimicked, such as getting the disc to the power pocket and other general principles like that.

But yeah, getting the "feel" is what I have the most struggle with. It's so difficult to turn visual information into "feeling" the motion. I know that sidewinder or someone is going to come in here and tell me to do standstill drives.... Ugh I suck at standstill.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

You wont find many top pros who look the same when throwing. Mechanics are similar but everyone has their quirks which just comes down to timing really. You might have to redo an entire part of your throw but standstill shouldnt be any problem.

Sounds like a balance issue. The video seems to show that. Slowing down helps get the feel of tbe true rip vs strong arming.

 

[sidewinder22]

Pretty good self analysis. Balance, you never position yourself to balance your front leg. You are trying to shift your weight, instead of staying dynamically balanced inside your posture and turning more. Watch your front foot turns the opposite direction of Paul's during the stride into the plant. You need to turn your hips further back at the plant and transfer/brace "from behind you"(see best downswing).

Paul is definitely wiping his butt, from deep into the Hershyzer start position before frame 1 in your series (Paul is a big fan of my drills ). You are going to kick the wall in the Hershyzer well before your butt/hip goes into the wall. Also keep in mind that drills are drills to emphasize a feeling of sorts and may look a little different when incorporated into your throw.

I'm going to go try this in the field today :thmbup:

 

[UhhNegative]

Pretty good self analysis. Balance, you never position yourself to balance your front leg. You are trying to shift your weight, instead of staying dynamically balanced inside your posture and turning more. Watch your front foot turns the opposite direction of Paul's during the stride into the plant. You need to turn your hips further back at the plant and transfer/brace "from behind you"(see best downswing).

Paul is definitely wiping his butt, from deep into the Hershyzer start position before frame 1 in your series (Paul is a big fan of my drills ). You are going to kick the wall in the Hershyzer well before your butt/hip goes into the wall. Also keep in mind that drills are drills to emphasize a feeling of sorts and may look a little different when incorporated into your throw.

You know it's funny, I've watched all of those videos (multiple times) and I was at a lake recently hitting golf balls for the first time in years after watching the weight shift Clement video and I was crushing them! But yeah I see now that I am too "purposefully" trying to shift my weight instead of letting the arm/disc movement shift the weight for me basically.

Tomorrow in the field I'm going to specifically work on staying balanced and upright. I suppose if my swing timing is off I won't be able to, but then I'll hopefully be able to adjust until the timing is right so I can stay balanced. We'll see how it goes...

 

[slowplastic]

What this reminds me of is someone trying to swing a baseball bat by focusing on massive weight shift/hip firing, before bat path is fully correct (your elbow forward position isn't happening), and at the detriment of overall balance. As SW22 said you did a good self analysis.

Don't stride so far forward, when you plant your foot is so far ahead that you can't catch your weight on it (you are going "into" it too much and that's why your knee never straightens and you end up tilted back).

You need to get your reachback extension later, you are reaching back early and the disc is dragging forward with an extended arm, then you fire the hips really hard and that causes your torso to lag behind and your left arm hugs your torso. I think this is a reason why you aren't getting to the elbow forward hand on the outside of the disc position.

To simplify, I would focus on shorter, light steps into a balanced Hershyzer type plant. And for upper body, delay the reachback and focus on keeping your forearm parallel to the line of fire as it is brought to your chest, before the shoulder unloading.

 

[UhhNegative]

What this reminds me of is someone trying to swing a baseball bat by focusing on massive weight shift/hip firing, before bat path is fully correct (your elbow forward position isn't happening), and at the detriment of overall balance. As SW22 said you did a good self analysis.

Don't stride so far forward, when you plant your foot is so far ahead that you can't catch your weight on it (you are going "into" it too much and that's why your knee never straightens and you end up tilted back).

You need to get your reachback extension later, you are reaching back early and the disc is dragging forward with an extended arm, then you fire the hips really hard and that causes your torso to lag behind and your left arm hugs your torso. I think this is a reason why you aren't getting to the elbow forward hand on the outside of the disc position.

To simplify, I would focus on shorter, light steps into a balanced Hershyzer type plant. And for upper body, delay the reachback and focus on keeping your forearm parallel to the line of fire as it is brought to your chest, before the shoulder unloading.

Thanks! I read a bit of your thread earlier and picked up some good bits in there. Late reachback has been a chronic problem of mine and I do notice that I throw a lot better when I have it better timed. When should my arm begin to bend on the pullthrough? I know it's heel down, then the hips pull the shoulder into place, and then I guess I should start pulling the elbow forward instead of the entire arm?

 

[sidewinder22]

Just keep your elbow forward/wide, so when your torso/shoulder turns the elbow is already forward moving with it(as well as the backswing). Don't think about pulling through, but swinging/releasing the lower arm forward.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks! I read a bit of your thread earlier and picked up some good bits in there. Late reachback has been a chronic problem of mine and I do notice that I throw a lot better when I have it better timed. When should my arm begin to bend on the pullthrough? I know it's heel down, then the hips pull the shoulder into place, and then I guess I should start pulling the elbow forward instead of the entire arm?

As SW22 said it kind of takes care of itself if you keep things wide with good timing (you have been turning so aggressively your arm has to collapse to throw at the target). I was having lots of issues because I was reaching back with my arm (which isolated my arm from my shoulder plane), so when things started to feel better with my shoulders I had some different cues I was using to keep things on track. I bet things will line up for you when you get the reachback timed better and don't blast your hips so early compared to the rest of things.

The late reachback for me (thinking about reaching back as I'm already getting into the shift) is pretty critical for both timing of positions and power. I've been struggling with that for the last 6 months or so, today things were better timed for me and it leads to some pretty effortless distance even with a slow walk in. Moral of the story is the tempo and sequence of the shift is much more important than the amount you shift, if it's incorrect.

 

[UhhNegative]

As SW22 said it kind of takes care of itself if you keep things wide with good timing (you have been turning so aggressively your arm has to collapse to throw at the target). I was having lots of issues because I was reaching back with my arm (which isolated my arm from my shoulder plane), so when things started to feel better with my shoulders I had some different cues I was using to keep things on track. I bet things will line up for you when you get the reachback timed better and don't blast your hips so early compared to the rest of things.

The late reachback for me (thinking about reaching back as I'm already getting into the shift) is pretty critical for both timing of positions and power. I've been struggling with that for the last 6 months or so, today things were better timed for me and it leads to some pretty effortless distance even with a slow walk in. Moral of the story is the tempo and sequence of the shift is much more important than the amount you shift, if it's incorrect.

I see what you mean.

Another issue I just remembered, for anyone reading, is that I have no supination in my left wrist (throwing wrist). I injured my elbow long ago and while it has no pain, it basically only allows my forearm bones to rotate around each other by about 5 degrees or so. I'm not sure if this will be a problem or not, but I already have to only use a 3 finger grip (no index finger) so I can keep my hand more on top of the disc to try and keep the disc on a good plane. I might take a picture of my grip to clarify. I think it will be okay because I have been able to throw good nose down drives sometimes. Of course the lack of the index finger on the rim might reduce some overall potential power.

 

[UhhNegative]

I drove by a field today and pulled over to get in a few throws. Did I say I really love throwing? Anyway, I thought about simply reaching out from my body and reaching out later and I was able to throw a T3 315' and a newish Star Roc3 300' into a light headwind on my first two throws. It felt effortless and I was probably only using 70% power. Already some great feeling improvements even though the bracing still felt off. Video to come later today.

 

[UhhNegative]

So I didn't have much success in the field today. I was trying to delay my reachback but in the video it still shows me getting the disc all the way back and my arm extended when it should be moving forward. It was also surprisingly difficult to not round (I was still rounding). Had a couple "decent" throws though. Anyway, I got some video from behind today. Still the biggest problem is my arm coming around way later than it needs to be. It's also easier to see when the disc ejects in this view, and it's definitely too early. That's probably my compensation for the arm coming through too late. I remember that my good throws feel like the disc is basically moving past me, while it looks here that I'm moving forward and then the disc is moving forward. The "hit" always feels way later than it should be, just need to retrain the muscle memory. Also I'm sure there are balance issues too, but how does the bracing look? It's still somewhat of a foreign concept of what it should feel like.



This frame is from the first throw in the video, and out of 10 videos it looks like I got the disc the furthest into the "power pocket".

 

[slowplastic]

On the standstill it looks like you are rotating in place, rather than loading into the rear hip, shifting forward, and rotating because of the brace. Maybe this is happening to an extent in your X-step throws too?

 

[UhhNegative]

On the standstill it looks like you are rotating in place, rather than loading into the rear hip, shifting forward, and rotating because of the brace. Maybe this is happening to an extent in your X-step throws too?

Yeah the standstill was awkward and the disc did not go far at all. Can you explain a little further by what you mean by "rotating because of the brace"? So you mean I need to get my right butt cheek more forward to get it loaded aka butt wipe?

 

[slowplastic]

In a standstill, you need to get your weight shifted to the back foot, it should feel like 80-100% of your weight is on the instep/toes of your rear foot and your rear hip is internally rotated. Then as you are at max reachback (approx) you will be shifting into the heel-down plant foot in the Hershyzer drill type of feeling. Your weight should be driven into the plant and this should cause the elbow to move forward. As this is happening, the hips will start to open because you are braced correctly and you can then start the swing.

If you just start to rotate off of your rear foot, you aren't shifting any weight into the Hershyzer plant (the body will just rotate, no mass slides forwards). If you aren't braced correctly you'll simply step past your brace foot (you're not exhibiting this).

I realize if you aren't used to standstills then it can be tricky to throw them, but at the same time...if you can get this feeling in a standstill then the X-step will only add to it.

Edit: If you're currently throwing your mids 300', then you should be able to get them 250'+ standstill for sure.

 

[UhhNegative]

In a standstill, you need to get your weight shifted to the back foot, it should feel like 80-100% of your weight is on the instep/toes of your rear foot and your rear hip is internally rotated. Then as you are at max reachback (approx) you will be shifting into the heel-down plant foot in the Hershyzer drill type of feeling. Your weight should be driven into the plant and this should cause the elbow to move forward. As this is happening, the hips will start to open because you are braced correctly and you can then start the swing.

If you just start to rotate off of your rear foot, you aren't shifting any weight into the Hershyzer plant (the body will just rotate, no mass slides forwards). If you aren't braced correctly you'll simply step past your brace foot (you're not exhibiting this).

I realize if you aren't used to standstills then it can be tricky to throw them, but at the same time...if you can get this feeling in a standstill then the X-step will only add to it.

Edit: If you're currently throwing your mids 300', then you should be able to get them 250'+ standstill for sure.

Ok I see what you are saying. So it's less of an active hip rotation rather than the hips HAVE to rotate because I'm throwing my weight into the brace by my arm/disc moving forward. Something like that?