Stepping on the rake (smallest possible lever)

[navel]

Ouch! Poor Tom...

We've all seen this scenario a hundred times over in movies and cartoons. Looks like it would hurt quite a bit, right? That's a lot of force travelling really fast.

Here's another one for all you sadists out there:

Let's pick this scenario apart.
What's REALLY happening here?

What's starting the movement of the rakes? And why are they moving so fast when nothing else in the scene seems to be moving nearly as fast as the handles of the rakes?
The answer is quite simple - leverage to the smallest possible lever.
And the result is that the longest lever comes smashing up ROTATING around the pivot point
It's just that simple!

Now this is important:
Would you get the same force and speed on the rake by grabbing it on the far side of the handle and trying to pull it up really fast?
Answer: No, not at all.
So why are you doing this when you throw? Your throwing arm is basically the handle (although it consist of moving levers and some 90 degree angles, the concept is basically the same). Don't try to drag the handle around! Instead try to "step on the rake". One small and linear movement just behind your center of gravity and.. BAM! Feel your whole arm come smashing around -rotating- around your center of gravity. As always, keep the shoulder angle at 90 degrees and keep the forearm loose. Now you've got your self a powerful whip-rake! You can finally be the gardener that Indiana Jones always dreamt of being.

Now lets apply this to the disc golf form. We know that your center of gravity is the pivot point.
1. What's your longest lever? Spoiler: It's everything on the left side of the center of gravity when you are viewed by someone else from the back of the teepad. How do you make that lever as long as possible at the moment the disc is leaving the hand?
2. What is your shortest lever? Spoiler: It's what's on the opposite side of the center of gravity. (Every part of your body can either be the long lever or the short lever.) How do you make that lever as small and compact as possible?
3. In which direction do you need to apply force on the short lever to make the longer lever smash around the center of gravity like the rake does?

Here is a video of me playing around with the longest- and shortest lever with a pen on a table.
I always apply a straight force on the pen with my index finger, and always the same amount of force. My thumb is the pivot point.
You can clearly see that when the pivot point is in the center (= same length of levers) the pen just spins out. When I apply the force at the smallest possible lever the pen comes shooting out! And it rotates even though I just applied a straight force!? What the heck!?

Another GIF.
Imagine a small but powerful step on Jarvis left shoulder and see the rake come smashing up around his center of gravity.

Well, I can go on and on, but I guess you get the point now. If you haven't thought about this before try to study a few pros throwing and you'll see it again and again.

 

[biscoe]

Only slightly related but I have stepped on the rake just like Tom the cat and it knocked me off my feet. Physics is real.

My business partner on the farm at the time saw me do it and thought it the funniest thing ever. Maybe 2 weeks later he did the same thing. Irony is real too.

 

[azplaya25]

Just to make sure I'm tracking here...I think this is another way to conceptualize the difference between weight shifting from behind vs weight shifting in front of you. Weight shift from behind, your momentum is all going into the end of the rake/pen. Weight shift in front is just hitting mid rake/pen. Thanks for the post, this is a cool way of thinking about it.

 

[navel]

Just to make sure I'm tracking here...I think this is another way to conceptualize the difference between weight shifting from behind vs weight shifting in front of you. Weight shift from behind, your momentum is all going into the end of the rake/pen. Weight shift in front is just hitting mid rake/pen. Thanks for the post, this is a cool way of thinking about it.

Yep, it's the same thing. Feeling the weight shift from behind can be difficult when first learning form. This is just one way of explaining that move, which also focus on keeping it tight on the trailing side and creating a big lever on the throwing side. I also believe that the single linear push is easier to describe this way and that you get a better feel for lining up the shot etc.

 

[RFrance]

My take away was that the axis of leverage was more towards the left shoulder instead of the spine as seen here where the orange lines intersect (SW from the Repository of Cool Images).

 

[navel]

My take away was that the axis of leverage was more towards the left shoulder instead of the spine as seen here where the orange lines intersect (SW from the Repository of Cool Images).

Also true. It's a part of making the longest possible lever. Keeping your center of gravity more towards the left shoulder creates a longer throwing lever and a more compact trailing lever.

 

[Agricolae]

Only slightly related but I have stepped on the rake just like Tom the cat and it knocked me off my feet. Physics is real.

My business partner on the farm at the time saw me do it and thought it the funniest thing ever. Maybe 2 weeks later he did the same thing. Irony is real too.

Hear, hear. I've done the same; a couple of times, in fact.

If I had to think about stepping on a rake every time I threw a disc, I'm pretty sure I'd quit. D*amned things hurt! I can testify that here is a high degree of accuracy built into the rake system where the target is assumed to be the centerline of the actuator's face. No avoiding the thing once you set it off.

 

[glassila]

I use a pick mattock for course building and I have stepped on it numerous times resulting in the "rake effect". Since the handle is only 36 inches long it's generally the knee that takes the hit. :doh:

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Only slightly related but I have stepped on the rake just like Tom the cat and it knocked me off my feet. Physics is real.

My business partner on the farm at the time saw me do it and thought it the funniest thing ever. Maybe 2 weeks later he did the same thing. Irony is real too.

You gotta give Jerry credit for getting you to step on the take without you're even knowing he was afoot. Talk about a crafty little bastard of a mouse...

 

[sidewinder22]

Goes along with making your shoulder lever longer:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135088

 

[navel]

Goes along with making your shoulder lever longer:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135088

Exactly. But more importantly making your other level shorter, right?

A balanced center of gravity with a short trailing lever will automatically give a long throwing lever, and vice versa. But focusing on the trailing side lever feels more powerful, just like the explanation with the rake. You just need a few inches of power/speed/acceleration on the trailing side for the throwing side to EXPLODE around the pivot point.

A bit of an oversimplification, but yea...

 

[sidewinder22]

Exactly. But more importantly making your other level shorter, right?

IMO it is the same discussion and both are equally important. You can't have one without the other in a system.

 

[Mocheez]

I use a pick mattock for course building and I have stepped on it numerous times resulting in the "rake effect". Since the handle is only 36 inches long it's generally the knee that takes the hit. :doh:

When I was a kid I stepped on the end of a dandelion weeder as I was running through the yard. I still have the scar where it embedded into my shin.

 

[navel]

IMO it is the same discussion and both are equally important. You can't have one without the other in a system.

For me it feels easier to focus on the short lever.
*Easier to find a good balance.
*Easier to shorten the short lever by compressing than to lengthen the long lever in any way.
*Easier to apply linear force to the short lever without messing up the throw in any way.

Like with a whip - it's easier to control the short handle rather than focusing on the actual whip.

I guess it's just a feel after all. As always, whatever work for different people.

 

[SeveN]

Just a few questions for everyone who has applied this successfully:

1. What does "shortening/compressing" the short lever feel like? I would imagine scrunching your left shoulder closer to your chest is not good, so what exactly is my body doing to shorten it?
2. Is the trailing lever being brought close to the center of gravity (plant foot?) simply letting the upper body move with the run up momentum as your plant foot braces so the upper body/trailing lever moves closer to the plant foot?

 

[sidewinder22]

For me it feels easier to focus on the short lever.
*Easier to find a good balance.
*Easier to shorten the short lever by compressing than to lengthen the long lever in any way.
*Easier to apply linear force to the short lever without messing up the throw in any way.

Like with a whip - it's easier to control the short handle rather than focusing on the actual whip.

I guess it's just a feel after all. As always, whatever work for different people.

Correct, I like to think of the trail or off arm swimming the rest of the swing forward ahead of it.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124523
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3364324&postcount=556

 

[sidewinder22]

Just a few questions for everyone who has applied this successfully:

1. What does "shortening/compressing" the short lever feel like? I would imagine scrunching your left shoulder closer to your chest is not good, so what exactly is my body doing to shorten it?
2. Is the trailing lever being brought close to the center of gravity (plant foot?) simply letting the upper body move with the run up momentum as your plant foot braces so the upper body/trailing lever moves closer to the plant foot?

1. Swimming into a bigger whip.


2. Yep.

 

[navel]

Just a few questions for everyone who has applied this successfully:

1. What does "shortening/compressing" the short lever feel like? I would imagine scrunching your left shoulder closer to your chest is not good, so what exactly is my body doing to shorten it?
2. Is the trailing lever being brought close to the center of gravity (plant foot?) simply letting the upper body move with the run up momentum as your plant foot braces so the upper body/trailing lever moves closer to the plant foot?

I'm adding to 1)

To me it feels like the same kind of compression you feel travel up your legs when you land on a trampoline. Like there is trapped energy waiting to release out somewhere.

To feel it in your shoulders: Stand like five feet or something away from a wall directly to your right (if RH) Put your arm straight out towards the wall. Fall into the wall and catch yourself with your arm by letting it bend slightly and compress. Feel the compression travel through that arm, into your shoulder and in towards your trailing shoulder.

Releasing that energy is like the swim move SW describes. It also feels a bit like a tennis backhand.
You can almost see how their whip starts at the opposite shoulder:

 

[Twistedhorse]

What is it that I'm supposed to do? stop the elbow?

 

[Twistedhorse]

Ouch! Poor Tom...

We've all seen this scenario a hundred times over in movies and cartoons. Looks like it would hurt quite a bit, right? That's a lot of force travelling really fast.

Here's another one for all you sadists out there:

Let's pick this scenario apart.
What's REALLY happening here?

What's starting the movement of the rakes? And why are they moving so fast when nothing else in the scene seems to be moving nearly as fast as the handles of the rakes?
The answer is quite simple - leverage to the smallest possible lever.
And the result is that the longest lever comes smashing up ROTATING around the pivot point
It's just that simple!

Now this is important:
Would you get the same force and speed on the rake by grabbing it on the far side of the handle and trying to pull it up really fast?
Answer: No, not at all.
So why are you doing this when you throw? Your throwing arm is basically the handle (although it consist of moving levers and some 90 degree angles, the concept is basically the same). Don't try to drag the handle around! Instead try to "step on the rake". One small and linear movement just behind your center of gravity and.. BAM! Feel your whole arm come smashing around -rotating- around your center of gravity. As always, keep the shoulder angle at 90 degrees and keep the forearm loose. Now you've got your self a powerful whip-rake! You can finally be the gardener that Indiana Jones always dreamt of being.

Now lets apply this to the disc golf form. We know that your center of gravity is the pivot point.
1. What's your longest lever? Spoiler: It's everything on the left side of the center of gravity when you are viewed by someone else from the back of the teepad. How do you make that lever as long as possible at the moment the disc is leaving the hand?
2. What is your shortest lever? Spoiler: It's what's on the opposite side of the center of gravity. (Every part of your body can either be the long lever or the short lever.) How do you make that lever as small and compact as possible?
3. In which direction do you need to apply force on the short lever to make the longer lever smash around the center of gravity like the rake does?

Here is a video of me playing around with the longest- and shortest lever with a pen on a table.
I always apply a straight force on the pen with my index finger, and always the same amount of force. My thumb is the pivot point.
You can clearly see that when the pivot point is in the center (= same length of levers) the pen just spins out. When I apply the force at the smallest possible lever the pen comes shooting out! And it rotates even though I just applied a straight force!? What the heck!?

Another GIF.
Imagine a small but powerful step on Jarvis left shoulder and see the rake come smashing up around his center of gravity.

Well, I can go on and on, but I guess you get the point now. If you haven't thought about this before try to study a few pros throwing and you'll see it again and again.

could you make an gif of you throwing with the shorter part also