Hmmm, I think you're right. Casual & DZ combined confused me. RC took hard stand 1-2 years ago that if you can't locate a disc the card saw splash into a 2" deep mocha-colored Casual Water puddle (or a 20+' gully) it was Lost. They changed a Q&A about it. Concern was previous interpretation would be abused. Seems punitive to me but Mike K was clear. So 3 min max time applies to Casual Areas same as IB/OB; however, a player could decline a search & take the penalty immediately if they choose (I think). Need more info from OP-maybe there was a DZ for Lost (+1)?
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
Is there a limit to "Helping to find a lost disc"?
- Thread starter glassila
- Start date
In watching the Champions Cup FPO post prod......a player threw a shot into casual water on one of the later holes. A spotter saw the shot and where it went in. The player took casual relief behind the lie that the spotter determined [no such rule allowing this, but a different discussion] and took her putt without penalty. They never looked for the disc. I did not understand it.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
There was no casual area involved- the area was a Relief Area (same as OB but no penalty). Clearly a misplay under 811.B as the lie established by the thrown disc was not used. If the group agreed that there was "compelling evidence" that the disc was in the Relief Area then the play would have been the DZ rather than the (overly punitive) lost disc penalty but it doesn't sound like that occurred. Gully is more like 10 ft FWIW and about 5 feet in front of the DZ so checking the gully would have taken 30 seconds or so tops.
My question to DC is this: did he finish out the hole from the DZ shot or from the correct lie once found? Penalty differs based on whether there was just one shot "misplayed" in the sequence.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
While spotters are not allowed to make any definitive calls there is no rule barring players from using info from the spotter to determine the location of the disc- it is in fact a good idea imo. If they did so and agreed upon it I think this was played correctly.
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
Clarification, clearing the gulch is the second or approach shot to a green on a par 4. Too many players are opting to just throwing down in there to get a favorable drop zone shot rather than attempting to clear it.
The entire card was just being lazy and assumed and didn't look.
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
Player played from the correct lie.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
How is the DZ shot preferable to "trying to clear it" when if you clear it you have a putt and you do not from the DZ? I see zero benefit to "just throwing down in there." Negative outcome is the same with no possibility of the positive outcome.
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
It is hard to explain the unexplainable. I believe the theory is if you don't make the corner, throw a RHBH anhyzer as far as you can. If you land short win, if you clear win, and if you are in relief area you get a reasonable up and down to save par. This save someone a proper lay up shot around the corner and than a shot to clear the area. They are scared of clear the area on their 3rd shot after the layup and would rather throw from the drop zone.
I heard at least 3 to 4 players mention this strategy. Perhaps making this area OB should be a consideration.
glassila
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,616
Yep, there was a thread on DGCR about this a year or 2 ago. Even if there is no doubt that a disc landed in a casual area, if it cannot be found it is considered a lost disc and the casual rule does not apply.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2008
- Messages
- 21,994
I've played some holes where I've considered missing the mando on purpose and would have been better off.
I think every lost OB disc could be said to "compelling evidence" that the disc was in an OB area, then the play would have been the DZ rather than the (overly punitive) lost disc penalty but it doesn't sound like that occurred. I don't care for mitigating the impact of losing a disc.
Why should there be any advantage to losing your disc in an OB or Relief Area.....opposed to losing one in an "in play" area.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
So you are good with the penalty for what is often a random occurrence being the stiffest one in the book? IMO the reason there is an inequity in these results is that the penalty for lost disc is too steep and not in line with the other penalties as it should be. Either make all of it stroke and distance or come up with something different for lost disc.
We agree. My issue is the inequity. Lost disc rule is too penal.
806.02 C
A disc that cannot be found is considered to be out-of-bounds if there is compelling evidence that the disc came to rest within an out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc is considered lost and play proceeds according to 805.03
Personally, I think that should apply to Casual & Relief also but per a speaker phone conversation with RC Chair and our TD, "compelling evidence" only applies to OB and specifically not to Casual. The rational was it would be abused. Relief Area didn't come up in that convo.
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
The rules treat Relief Areas as penalty free OB areas, so all of the rules for OB also apply to Relief Areas
Casual Areas are different from OB in a couple ways and this leads to some of the differences with regards to lost discs.
- OB areas may prohibit a player from entering that area, so locating a disc may not even be allowed. Players can play from Casual Areas and so players can freely enter the area to find their disc.
- The next lie for discs in an OB area is based on where the disc entered the area, so location of final resting place is not required to determine the lie. For Casual Areas, the next lie is based on the position of the disc which requires locating it.
And yes, we've had questions from players that wanted to extend the old muddy puddle Q&A to evergreen trees, thick layers of leaves in the fall, snow and more. There needs to be a line someplace, and where we have it (exception for OB/Relief Areas only) makes it the easiest place to draw that line.
I watched it today. It was Salonen on hole 17. She was holding the purple disc she threw from the tee when she putted and it was visible on the opposite bank of the creek when she putted. Don't know how to link with timestamp but it's at 41:37. The commentators were mistaken.
I think it's not punitive enough. I have no tolerance for littering on the course.
glassila
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,616
Eveliina is on the teebox at 39:00 and you can see her disc splash in the water at 39:20.
The announcers say that the creek is marked as casual and that the disc probably floated away, but since the spotter spotted where it went in she is able to get "casual relief" from that spot and it is not considered a lost disc.
That is exactly how I think the Casual Area rule should work!
I would like rule 806.03 to say...If there is compelling evidence that a disc landed in a casual area then there is no penalty if the disc is not found.
Let the card decide where to spot where it went in just as they do with shots that go OB!
This is the best analysis of this rule I've seen. Not a convert but I really appreciate the effort to help me understand the rationale.
