Poll - Hold Spots for Women?

[jenb]

All players have an equal opportunity to register early.

True, if you ignore unequal means of doing so.

This could be said for several of the protected divisions.

The older men can typically still have a competitive expereince in non age protected divisions. Not so the 725 rated woman

Better to do away with the protected divisions than to have to start reserving spots as well.

TDs have the option to restrict the divisions offerred. No one will be forced to reserve spots. They can simply hold B or C tiers, or hold a Supertour with no gender protected divisions.

Players in tournaments come from all different backgrounds. This is way too large of a generalization to hold up.

Tournaments aren't typically filling before men field a division. The facts speak for themselves.

This is the very reason I don't get to play as many tournaments as I would like to. I would love to be able to wait until the last minute to figure out if I can make it. Unfortuneately, it does not always work that way. I think it would be unfair to favor one class when many people share this problem.

Again, tournaments aren't typically filling before men field a division. The facts speak for themselves.

The expense is doubled or tripled because the family is getting double or triple the benefit. There is no requirement for both Mom and Dad to play, if only one can play due to personal scheduling/budget issues, then it is a personal choice between Mom and Dad to decide who should play.

And that's the real reason women only tournaments get higher turnout. The norm of the mom rendering the childcare is that strong. Extraordinary measures are needed in order to start fielding women's divisions more effectively at Supertour events.

In short, the field at a disc golf tournament is generally made up of a broad section of the community with diverse backgrounds. All of the different groups have different contraints. While some may have more than others, they are generally personal in nature, and I do not see any reason why one class should get preferential treatment over the other.

How can you call it a "broad section of the community" with a straight face, when women make up more than 50% of the community?

 

[billnchristy]

Forgot to add, Christy doesn't do that, she signs up if she wants to play and she takes whatever crap the TD throws at her and does her best. She has played in ankle deep water when other guys quit, she has played with kids with disorders that had her to the point of tears because she had to keep feeling their rage and anger, she has played with guys who got so frustrated about being beat by her that they melted down, and she has played with some really cool guys and girls.

It's not just lower ranked women either, she has played advanced and got stuck with the last place open player to fill out the card and he acted like a little baby too.

It really is a toss up and if she wasn't so tough I wouldn't blame her for holding out.

 

[billnchristy]

I am male and I strongly disagree with reserving spots for any protected division. All players have an equal opportunity to register early.



This could be said for several of the protected divisions. If a player wants the advantages of a protected division, then they must accept the disavantages as well. Better to do away with the protected divisions than to have to start reserving spots as well.

Ahh but most masters will go to rec or int or whatever division their rating lines up with. Women can be rated 600 and the closest div they can join is one that is capped at 800 and most often 900. So they are playing against guys that are rated upto 300 points higher.

That would be REC playing Climo. This is equal and fair?

Players in tournaments come from all different backgrounds. This is way too large of a generalization to hold up.



This is the very reason I don't get to play as many tournaments as I would like to. I would love to be able to wait until the last minute to figure out if I can make it. Unfortuneately, it does not always work that way. I think it would be unfair to favor one class when many people share this problem.

That's fair

The expense is doubled or tripled because the family is getting double or triple the benefit. There is no requirement for both Mom and Dad to play, if only one can play due to personal scheduling/budget issues, then it is a personal choice between Mom and Dad to decide who should play.


In short, the field at a disc golf tournament is generally made up of a broad section of the community with diverse backgrounds. All of the different groups have different contraints. While some may have more than others, they are generally personal in nature, and I do not see any reason why one class should get preferential treatment over the other.

Do you think an 8yo with a 300 rating should play in REC against people rated 600 points higher than them?

Or let's reverse it.

Say only one 1000 rated pro shows up, should he play REC because that is the only spot we can throw him?

It's the same differential in rating between most women.

You have to realize that advanced women have a hard time with good REC men and can usually be easily handled by INT men. So where do you put them that is FAIR to them?

There are girls and there will be more in the future that can beat men regularly, but until we get enough of them playing in tournaments we will never find them.

You do also realize that the whole individual competition thing is VERY intimidating to most women. These are the same women who may have caddied for the men and listened to the macho crap and saw the stress and whatnot of the male competition. Many think that is how it is going to be with the girls and it is not, even at a major it is way more laid back BUT, until you entice them in and get them to experience that they won't know.

Throwing them with kids and crappy rec players IS NOT the way to get them back.

You could say this reservation crap has been necessitated by the junky treatment they have gotten in the past.

 

[DiscJunkie]

One reason we are reluctant to preregister early is because we don't know whether a division will form. Guys don't typically have that problem, so I imagine it is difficult to understand the game of chicken that is played as we wait to see who else signs up. The onse who do sign up early ofeten wind up having to play alone, or get wrecked in a mens division where they feel unwelcome, or take a refund in merch for a tourney they didn't play. Plus, a lot more women than men have to live paycheck to paycheck, and arrange childcare at the last minute. It's really hard to get relatives to commit to childcare a month in advance. And if the mom is playing, odds are the dad is too, and the expense to the family is doubled or tripled, so it tends to be a last minute decision if everything comes together.

This makes a lot of sense.
I think you've changed my mind. I vote to hold spots open for women.

 

[xdzt]

I voted no and not because I am a man. This is the same problem with affirmative action. If you want true equality then you can't give the minority groups preferential treatment, it just swings the issue to the opposite side. No holding spots, women have the same opportunities as men to sign up for any tournament.

Equating this to affirmative action is unnecessary. Affirmative action is seeking to undo years of social bias in an attempt to eventually level the playing field. Regardless of your feelings on affirmative action, it's pretty hard to claim that there have been years of disc golf injustice against women.

I think it's a pretty silly idea to reserve spots. All this energy should be put into forming Ladies Leagues and similar at local courses to boost the number of women playing competitively, and ultimately render the issue of "will there be a field?" moot.

 

[notapro]

JRW III gets my vote.

 

[JRW III]

From reading the posts above, it appears that the majority of the problems discussed stem from the fact that, in general, there are not consistently enough women to field a division at tournaments.

I do not disagree that the women who do choose to play, are often dealt a raw deal. I realize that they would prefer to play with other women vs. Men and Juniors.

What I disagree with, is why should a single class get preferential treatment. I fully understand that if you want to entice more women to play, it would be best to hold spots open. I just disagree that any class should get preferential treatment. All women have the same opportunity to participate in tournaments, however, on a percentage basis, they choose not to. I do not feel it is the job of the TD/Supertour to go out of its way, at the detriment of another class (the last few males who got waitlisted instead of getting in), to entice a single class to participate more.

In short, I respectfully disagree. Will not post anymore. Not intending to troll, just want to voice my opinion.

 

[notapro]

Saying that more women live paycheck to paycheck sounds like a HUGE generalization.

And, hate to say it, if you're 600 rated....... Maybe you shouldn't be playing tournaments. What a jerk thing to say, but *shrug*.

 

[gcanter2376]

How would you guys feel to be put on a card with kids?

Let me tell you, it SUCKS.

If a full card is not reached for the girls then they get put with Juniors or bottom Rec (or Novice) card.

Bottom card is complete crap (even I have never been that low) and usually has attitude issues.

Many women, if not all of them would rather NOT play then end up on these cards because it completely ruins their game and their enjoyment.

Some move up to INT men or beyond so they can avoid it, which basically means they are donating.

Stop crying equality when it is NOT equal unless you are volunteering to be the tournament's babysitter too.

I agree 100%! My wife hates playing with the juniors and it happens almost everytime. I would not like it either. I know somebody has to but it should not be the women exclusively. I do not mind playing with women on my card personally. If the guys who are against it had the same things happen to them maybe the would have a better understanding.

 

[billnchristy]

I prefer to play with the girls. Way less drama. The disc golf world is bizarro in that the women are very laid back and chill while the guys act like girls at a quilting circle or high school prom.

 

[JeCroisQue]

Equating this to affirmative action is unnecessary. Affirmative action is seeking to undo years of social bias in an attempt to eventually level the playing field. Regardless of your feelings on affirmative action, it's pretty hard to claim that there have been years of disc golf injustice against women.

I think it's a pretty silly idea to reserve spots. All this energy should be put into forming Ladies Leagues and similar at local courses to boost the number of women playing competitively, and ultimately render the issue of "will there be a field?" moot.

If you look at my later post I said that I am just using the example of AA as to why something like this wouldn't work. On the surface, AA gives preferencial treatment in order to foster equality. This shouldn't happen. I didn't mean to get political, I just wanted to use an external example that showed how this doesn't work out well.

 

[billnchristy]

But the current situation isn't equal either so you propose your equality favor men than women?

 

[giles]

Interesting discussion. I see a few misconceptions. My wife has been playing tournaments with sense '07 so from what I have seen.


Regarding the women being stuck with the rec bottom card. It does happen but most TD will try to put advanced womens with the advanced masters first, if possible.


Regarding guys being upset that a woman is beating them. I've never seen it. Maybe it is because it is my wife doing it? She is currently 894 rated, has won men's rec once and finishes near the top in intermediate men consistently. She regularly takes the boys money in weekly mini tournaments. Any time someone has said anything it has been in a joking way. Maybe Paige Peirce set the tone so the guys are used to it by now?


It also seems like everyone is glossing over the fact that the question is in regards to big events, not your B tier and below.

 

[JoshEpoo]

The older men can typically still have a competitive expereince in non age protected divisions. Not so the 725 rated woman

Do 725 rated women really need to be travelling and playing NT's and Majors/A-tiers? Would they even bother doing it? Do you need to play World's to know you're the best sub-800 rated woman who bothered to travel across the country?

There's no shortage of disc golf events in which to participate in my area (which admittedly is pretty active in terms of DG). Seems like the best way to get ladies playing is with grass roots type stuff in your area; women's leagues and minis, then decide with those people which tournaments you'd like to play and pre-reg. I talk to my DG buds about which tournaments they're going to play.

I'm an almost 30 year old dude, not a TD, and I have no problem with holding spots in major events for ladies, but it seems like it may be a PITA for those in charge.

 

[giles]

Do 725 rated women really need to be travelling and playing NT's and Majors/A-tiers? Do you need to play World's to know you're the best sub-800 rated woman who bothered to travel across the country?

I don't think it is about winning for every person. I know I don't travel and play events just to win. I do it to meet new people, see people I've met, play new courses, experiance new cities/state, enjoy a weekend camping with like minded people.

So yes, yes they do.

 

[jasonc]

One reason we are reluctant to preregister early is because we don't know whether a division will form. Guys don't typically have that problem, so I imagine it is difficult to understand the game of chicken that is played as we wait to see who else signs up. The onse who do sign up early ofeten wind up having to play alone, or get wrecked in a mens division where they feel unwelcome, or take a refund in merch for a tourney they didn't play. Plus, a lot more women than men have to live paycheck to paycheck, and arrange childcare at the last minute. It's really hard to get relatives to commit to childcare a month in advance. And if the mom is playing, odds are the dad is too, and the expense to the family is doubled or tripled, so it tends to be a last minute decision if everything comes together.

It is obvious for everyone to see that women disc golfers are in need of better motivation to sign up for tournaments. Maybe slightly lower entry fees? Maybe better advertisement of sites like www.discgolf4women.com? I'm not sure anyone has a "final answer" to this problem. I'm not sure that holding any number of spots would change anything...maybe it's worth a shot?

I'm not sure how you can assume that more women live paycheck to paycheck than men. I have what many would consider to be a very good job. My wife also works and we have been living paycheck to paycheck for a long time.

Having said that, life is too short to worry about whether or not a division will form. If you or any other ladies out there truly love to play disc golf, then it should not matter if any division forms...you are the only person responsible for throwing your plastic and the corresponding level of enjoyment. You are the only person that decides to pay attention or not to any challenges during a tournament round. Greater challenges = greater success, right???

From my POV, you can continue to sweat the small stuff and try to change things that are out of your control or you can focus on things like encouraging other women to sign up for the same tournaments you are about to play. It's pretty easy to spread the word these days with the help of the interweb.

 

[JeCroisQue]

But the current situation isn't equal either so you propose your equality favor men than women?

What exactly is it that favors men, I have yet to see a valid reason that would only apply to women. Let alone a reason that would be so daunting or leave them with such a great disadvantage that they would need spots to be held for them.

 

[Cygnus]

Put me on the ladies card. Women are usually alot more fun/chill anyway.

I would support holding spots to get more women to play in tournaments which regardless of your moral thoughts we need more women playing they are extremely underrepresented in our sport. And besides discin ladies is fun to watch.

 

[billnchristy]

Did you read?

 

[JoshEpoo]

I don't think it is about winning for every person. I know I don't travel and play events just to win. I do it to meet new people, see people I've met, play new courses, experiance new cities/state, enjoy a weekend camping with like minded people.

So yes, yes they do.

Fair enough. I think it's a good thing if we can encourage all types to play DG, but are NT's and Majors the best place to play for people of that skill level? You can still partake in the culture, travel, play fabulous courses, meet all the players, and experience a great time without having a spot reserved for you to play in that level of competition.

If you're going to make travel plans like that anyway, you're going to need time to do so, so just pre-reg!