[Question] Potential tech standards changes?

[Johnny Depth]

Lose and loses, not loose or looses

 

[beereakfast]

Lose and loses, not loose or looses

You're only clouding the issue with your literacy. Stoppit!

 

[MikeAx]

Wow, definitely a lot of passion around the topic and a lot of reoccurring themes.

Most competitive sports reach a limit where the technology needs to be curbed for many different reasons. Has disc golf reached this limit? Maybe, maybe not, however we can probably agree it is close. There is no doubt that players have become accustomed to using their high speed drivers and are resistant to give them up. The game needs the elements of skill and show. "Drive for show, putt for dough." There will always be people that can strong arm a disc as opposed to using proper technique, just as there are people that rely heavily on overhand pancake or thumber shots, however in the long-run, players with a balanced game will likely win more often. There was a comment made previously around limiting the number of discs a player can carry during a tournament round. In golf, players are only allowed to carry 14 clubs during a round. Limiting the number of discs would definitely change the dynamic. Selection would be relevant to the course and the risk/reward of losing a disc could change one's strategy. Others mentioned how short courses are becoming obsolete by high speed drivers as many can bomb it over obstacles and get to the pin…well, we have the rarely enforced 2 meter rule. If the rules (even the unpopular ones) are observed it can maintain shorter courses competitiveness. It's probably best for the sport to review the current rules and tech standards to address and clearly establish any limitations sooner than later.

On that note, what does speed really mean? It would be nice if the PDGA would establish a standardized rating system for the different flight attributes. The arbitrary numbers between the manufacturers vary so much; it makes it hard to understand the characteristics. I have played a while and have a solid understanding, but I can appreciate how new players can be overwhelmed and confused causing them to make poor disc selections.

This leads into the topic of new players. I see many folks referring to new players in a derogatory way, i.e. "noobs" or "newbs" and how it is funny to watch them try to throw a high speed driver. Those who have learned to be successful at playing disc golf probably didn't do it on one's own. I am sure some friendly pointers and basic education from a seasoned player could help them choose a disc better suited to their abilities. This would result in more controlled driving and thus addressing a piece of the safety debate. There are far greater numbers of new players than elite players. The PDGA has 18K current members, 56K total members since 1976, and estimates that there are 500K regular players. In order to continue to grow this sport we collectively need to be stewards of the game to turn these experimenters into addicts like us.

I have some thoughts on the Innova conspiracy theories but I will hold them for another post.

 

[discgolf4lif3]

get rid of high speed drivers.. living in the glory days..

 

[A rod]

Its been mentioned other sports dont use the best technology at the top level - no metal bats in pro baseball, but its allowed in college..

So they should limit pros to 7 speed discs, but in the lower divisions anything goes? Or possibly the speed limit lowers in higher divisions. Ie adv spd 9, int spd 11, rec spd 13 haha

 

[Sean Johnson]

This is the truth. Disc golf went on a DIY path, bypassing parks and recreation to run its own events through local clubs. By doing that, you removed disc golf from anything a parks and recreation professional needed to know about. It is by design; we don't want the local parks and rec department to know how to compete with our local clubs. We want to control programming for ourselves. Because of the exclusion and because the courses are generating no income, there is no reason for a parks and recreation professional to take any sort of interest in disc golf. There is a huge knowledge gap about disc golf in the parks and recreation profession, but it is important to understand that we created and encourage that knowledge gap.

The knowledge gap allows parks departments to buy into the myth that disc golf is fine in multi-use areas and OK disc golf courses in spots that they should not. Again, that has so far worked in our favor as we have thousands of disc golf holes installed in places that no one with a proper parks and recreation risk management background and understanding of disc golf would allow. It has helped the game grow.

At the same time, it's a liability time bomb embedded in the foundation of our sport. If it would ever go off, the effects would be devastating. Nobody really likes to talk about it, because it would set disc golf back badly.

Is the bomb ticking? I have no idea. You know who would? I think a company who makes around 70% of the golf discs and a large % of the target baskets would know. A company like that would get named in a lawsuit or two, don't you think? If Innova started to seem concerned that the bomb was ticking, I'd pay attention.

This...and this:

I think I'm starting to get a man-crush on Three Putt.

 

[Sean Johnson]

Geez, I wish I had enough time to write all that's in my head, but I don't. but to hit the high points:

I'll stop at ten, but I could easily give you many more points, but work beckons.

And if anyone is just coming into this thread, you'd do yourself a disservice if you didn't follow this quote back to the full version (removed the meat of it b/c it's a bit on the long side). :clap:

 

[mashnut]

I have been letting this digest all day. There have been rumors flying for months about how bad one new disc company hurt an old one by stabbing them directly in the heart and watching them bleed out. Said company would benefit greatly watching their new adversary that has MOSTLY big rim drivers go down and lose the type of money new start up companies can't afford to lose in redesign and marketing. Maybe dramatic but it's a pretty emotional situation in my opinion. I vote no change!

And also keep lobbying from manufacturers out of the professional organization or it will burn to the ground.... RIGHTFULLY!

Ha, if you think any of the new companies have made any real dent in Innova's market share, then you probably think that tournament players and players who care enough to post about disc golf on the internet are a representative sample of the whole disc golf population. They're not. Prodigy seems to be doing ok, but Innova's still selling discs as fast as they can crank them out.

 

[dehaas]

From what I've read on this I definitely think its a multi layered scenario. There needs to be some concrete data if rim width or a weight to diameter ratio will be enforced. It seems that safety is being implied by desires for such changes but like mentioned before, nobody wants to draw attention to safety or lack thereof.

Suppose you do instill some form of limit. Your pdga tourney goers aren't the ones you're worried about being involved in an incident in a park. Its the chuckers, and making a disc illegal for pdga use means nothing to them...they will still use their grooves and nukes. I think what will happen is that a few companies will continue to sell banned discs and just cater towards the casual crowd on those molds.

I can see the desire to change tech standards as a legit concern for the future of the sport. If short courses are "too easy" now and its getting more and more difficult to get land approved for championship 18 layouts then maybe something has to give. I honestly don't think a lot would change for touring pros if the fastest disc they could use was a wraith. I like the idea of pros actually shooting close to par, like ball golf.

I think the most important theme here is that the pdga needs to think long and hard about where they want the sport to be in 20 years and start making slow changes to get there right now. The sport has exploded in recent years and a lot of topics need to be looked at again. More courses, players, and manufacturers are good for all of us but if the framework isn't laid out its gonna implode.

Maybe the pdga could offer some sort of course design certification? If somebody is pdga certified they ideally would have a general concept of how to design a safe course in a public space, which might appeal to a city looking to put in a course. A lot of locals want to see a course in their nearby park, pester the city into getting it approved and then design it so that a lot of other park users are at risk of being hit. Just a thought.

 

[remember2morrow]

Wow, definitely a lot of passion around the topic and a lot of reoccurring themes.

Most competitive sports reach a limit where the technology needs to be curbed for many different reasons. Has disc golf reached this limit? Maybe, maybe not, however we can probably agree it is close. There is no doubt that players have become accustomed to using their high speed drivers and are resistant to give them up. The game needs the elements of skill and show. "Drive for show, putt for dough." There will always be people that can strong arm a disc as opposed to using proper technique, just as there are people that rely heavily on overhand pancake or thumber shots, however in the long-run, players with a balanced game will likely win more often. There was a comment made previously around limiting the number of discs a player can carry during a tournament round. In golf, players are only allowed to carry 14 clubs during a round. Limiting the number of discs would definitely change the dynamic. Selection would be relevant to the course and the risk/reward of losing a disc could change one's strategy. Others mentioned how short courses are becoming obsolete by high speed drivers as many can bomb it over obstacles and get to the pin…well, we have the rarely enforced 2 meter rule. If the rules (even the unpopular ones) are observed it can maintain shorter courses competitiveness. It's probably best for the sport to review the current rules and tech standards to address and clearly establish any limitations sooner than later.

On that note, what does speed really mean? It would be nice if the PDGA would establish a standardized rating system for the different flight attributes. The arbitrary numbers between the manufacturers vary so much; it makes it hard to understand the characteristics. I have played a while and have a solid understanding, but I can appreciate how new players can be overwhelmed and confused causing them to make poor disc selections.

This leads into the topic of new players. I see many folks referring to new players in a derogatory way, i.e. "noobs" or "newbs" and how it is funny to watch them try to throw a high speed driver. Those who have learned to be successful at playing disc golf probably didn't do it on one's own. I am sure some friendly pointers and basic education from a seasoned player could help them choose a disc better suited to their abilities. This would result in more controlled driving and thus addressing a piece of the safety debate. There are far greater numbers of new players than elite players. The PDGA has 18K current members, 56K total members since 1976, and estimates that there are 500K regular players. In order to continue to grow this sport we collectively need to be stewards of the game to turn these experimenters into addicts like us.

I have some thoughts on the Innova conspiracy theories but I will hold them for another post.

:clap::clap::clap:

 

[Terry 44]

Safety

It is hysteria of very few incidents that ended up banning lawn darts in the US.
Why is this even an issue?

Lawn Darts and disc golf? How can you use those in the same sentence?

Wait... who is associated with Discmania? Oh yeah, Innova!

Non-biased rants will be non-unbiasedly read.

 

[Jeronimo]

And if anyone is just coming into this thread, you'd do yourself a disservice if you didn't follow this quote back to the full version (removed the meat of it b/c it's a bit on the long side). :clap:

I disagree, I found that post in particular full of bias in just about all 10 points. I disagreed with at least half of them as well. In particular the whole argument about sustainability and parks & rec courses vs private courses. If the sport is truly going to see growth it's going to have to be more private sector focused. If what you want in disc golf as a "sport" is the equivalent of a public playground, then sure... I don't see restricting an entire class of discs as a problem. However, if we're talking about disc golf as an actual sport with money behind it, then all these fair weather park goer's who are in "constant danger" shouldn't be on the course because the course would be exclusive to disc golf. I don't see how this isn't obvious...

 

[onemilemore]

I disagree, I found that post in particular full of bias in just about all 10 points. I disagreed with at least half of them as well. In particular the whole argument about sustainability and parks & rec courses vs private courses. If the sport is truly going to see growth it's going to have to be more private sector focused. If what you want in disc golf as a "sport" is the equivalent of a public playground, then sure... I don't see restricting an entire class of discs as a problem. However, if we're talking about disc golf as an actual sport with money behind it, then all these fair weather park goer's who are in "constant danger" shouldn't be on the course because the course would be exclusive to disc golf. I don't see how this isn't obvious...

Please figure out where this magical money is going to come from, then, because this sport has been around for years and is still struggling to find it.

Out here in California, land is either in short supply, or ridiculously expensive. Parks are one of our only options, so disc golf has to figure out a way to coexist.

 

[krhoades]

Standards and regulations could mean a lot of good things. ASTM, ISO and EN-71 have standards for consumer products. Companies like Intertek, UL, SGS and Bureau Veritas can easily test and provide safety recommendations without adjusting quality or performance.

The time is now as exposure is only increasing. If multi-purpose parks are on the way out, enthusiasts and recreational players alike can expect an associated fee to play. If multi-purpose parks are here to stay, then we need to do a better job of internal policing. Not just telling your friends not to leave their beer bottles on the course, but also not throwing until all fairways are clear. We should do a better job as enthusiasts to explain to onlookers what we do, how to play, and show them what's what.

But let's be real, until this sport has defined professionals in a public eye, not just the enthusiasts', there will always be the group of guys smoking, drinking, and chuckin' down fairways whether there are people still playing or walking the same hole or not.

The great thing about this sport, is that there is room for everyone, regardless of skill. It just so happens the people/culture of the sport also condone poor behavior like littering and public consumption, and sometimes illegal substances.

Whether the play is competitive or recreational, we can all do a better job of being aware and cleaning up the parks/sport; omit holes if there are kids running around. Mistakes happen, but a lot of them can be limited.

High speed drivers are not a problem, it's the people that throw them.

 

[mashnut]

I disagree, I found that post in particular full of bias in just about all 10 points. I disagreed with at least half of them as well. In particular the whole argument about sustainability and parks & rec courses vs private courses. If the sport is truly going to see growth it's going to have to be more private sector focused. If what you want in disc golf as a "sport" is the equivalent of a public playground, then sure... I don't see restricting an entire class of discs as a problem. However, if we're talking about disc golf as an actual sport with money behind it, then all these fair weather park goer's who are in "constant danger" shouldn't be on the course because the course would be exclusive to disc golf. I don't see how this isn't obvious...

Please figure out where this magical money is going to come from, then, because this sport has been around for years and is still struggling to find it.

Out here in California, land is either in short supply, or ridiculously expensive. Parks are one of our only options, so disc golf has to figure out a way to coexist.

To be fair, he's from Maine so he probably doesn't have a lot of experience with public courses or with the struggles of trying to get new courses put in. That's the one state where private courses have really taken off and there just aren't many public ones. In the rest of the country it's a little different, like onemilemore says there just isn't the money to create private courses to replace the public courses we currently rely on.

 

[discgman]

Being that there are so many new disc manufacturers coming out every year, wouldn't it be a conflict of interest to have an owner of one of the largest companies part of the committee to influence change in standards? Does the PGA or the USGA have executives from Nike sit on their standards boards? I understand we are in the infancy of the growth of our sport, but the PDGA's disc golf standards committee should be as unbiased as possible and take as much feedback from ALL disc golf manufacturers, not just a select few. Safety is always a big part of our sport, many discs have not been approved or ruled illegal due to safety standards. Worry about people getting struck out on a course is always a conern, not so much during tournaments due to liability insurance and posted signs, but in everyday play at your local course, it could be. But isnt that up to the designers of courses, to ensure they are as safe as possible for all users. Is there some sort of organized standards for course design? Should there be? JMHO

 

[mashnut]

The issue is that it's really hard to avoid conflicts of interest when the only people willing to volunteer for these types of positions are the ones who are deeply involved in the sport. If they are that involved, it's very they're going to have some kind of connection to at least one of the disc golf companies out there. It would be awesome if people from outside the sport were excited about the growth and development of disc golf, but they're not.

I do think that it's worth being careful to have all those conflicts of interest disclosed in any instance like this, but I'm fairly certain that Duvall didn't try to hide his connections with Innova or with the USDGC when he made this presentation.

Also, course design standards would be great, but it's unlikely that joe schmoe disc golfer who convinces his small town to put in a course will follow those guidelines, nor is it likely that the random parks and rec guy who goes out to "design" a course will even know about those standards.

 

[Rizbee]

Prediction: Some time in the next 2-3 years, the USDGC will be played with a disc restriction that limits the use of high speed and/or heavy weight drivers. Harold Duvall and Jonathon Poole (USDGC TDs and Innova guys) have lots of experience petitioning the PDGA Competition Director for rules waivers (e.g., the "BuncR" of a few years back), so the USDGC provides a great "test kitchen" environment.

For what it's worth, I'd be happy if they played the tournament with a restriction that no disc faster/sharper than a Roc/Buzz/Ghost/etc. could be used. I think it would still be extremely exciting to see Paul, Will, Double G., Avery, (insert your favorite bomber's name here), et. al., chuck their midranges 450-500+ feet around Winthrop Gold - which they CAN do.

Provide the big payout and the pros will follow.

 

[KRATC]

So, Steve Rico posted this on Facebook, and the thumbnail is Hammer's avatar. Hammer is now a celebrity.

 

[mashnut]

Prediction: Some time in the next 2-3 years, the USDGC will be played with a disc restriction that limits the use of high speed and/or heavy weight drivers. Harold Duvall and Jonathon Poole (USDGC TDs and Innova guys) have lots of experience petitioning the PDGA Competition Director for rules waivers (e.g., the "BuncR" of a few years back), so the USDGC provides a great "test kitchen" environment.

For what it's worth, I'd be happy if they played the tournament with a restriction that no disc faster/sharper than a Roc/Buzz/Ghost/etc. could be used. I think it would still be extremely exciting to see Paul, Will, Double G., Avery, (insert your favorite bomber's name here), et. al., chuck their midranges 450-500+ feet around Winthrop Gold - which they CAN do.

Provide the big payout and the pros will follow.

I would be very interested in seeing a tournament try that format (limiting rim width). I think that limiting disc weight has already shown to be not that big a deal, lots of the top pros still travel all the way to the Japan Open despite the weight restrictions, and they seem to shoot just fine with the lighter plastic.