WORLD FIASCO

[Loomis]

So, Loomis, when you contacted the PDGA and let them know how you feel about the situation, what did they say?

Nothing. It's a board that only gets together occasionally (usually by video conference or emails) so there is rarely a chance for a quick response. And most of the time the board focuses on bigger issues. My issue isn't something that they are going to hold an emergency session over.

When was the last time you saw a PDGA change/result stemming from this forum? This is a place for venting and name-calling. I am trying to keep my involvement to just venting.

 

[Loomis]

No one opened the field for just favorites, there was a window to register which was told to every qualified player, it's not the PDGAs fault that some people chose not to register.

Are you volunteering to run a worlds that has no cap on players? If so, I'll sign up right now. Sounds like fun! Can't wait!

I know we are talking about two different issues here. I'm referring to the Women's division and you're probably talking about the Men's OPEN division.

The women only had eight spots. That's 8. Even when other women tried to sign up, they said no. So that's my issue. We try to get women to play and we charge them full price for their membership and then we stack the deck against them.

 

[bwgort]

I know we are talking about two different issues here. I'm referring to the Women's division and you're probably talking about the Men's OPEN division.

The women only had eight spots. That's 8. Even when other women tried to sign up, they said no. So that's my issue. We try to get women to play and we charge them full price for their membership and then we stack the deck against them.

Yes I understand your complaint. I do not understand a solution that you propose. I figured that meant you were planning on running a worlds of your own to show how its done properly. Maybe I am mistaken, what's the purpose of complaining if we aren't talking about how to fix the problem?

 

[AndyJB]

Let's talk more about MJ here...

One would think Discraft would pay for him to get in, on the chance that he will win. Signature discs do sell better than non sig discs (barely, but they do) and one could reasonably assume (apologizes to MJ if I'm talking out of my butt) that he would choose the Comet.

Since the Comet is ideal for beginners all the way up to pros, one could also assume that more beginners would buy the world champs disc, throw it much better than warp speed stuff, get hooked on the game and proceed to purchase even more Discraft discs in the long run.

That's a lot of assumptions. But all are reasonable.

 

[bwgort]

Let's talk more about MJ here...

One would think Discraft would pay for him to get in, on the chance that he will win. Signature discs do sell better than non sig discs (barely, but they do) and one could reasonably assume (apologizes to MJ if I'm talking out of my butt) that he would choose the Comet.

Since the Comet is ideal for beginners all the way up to pros, one could also assume that more beginners would buy the world champs disc, throw it much better than warp speed stuff, get hooked on the game and proceed to purchase even more Discraft discs in the long run.

That's a lot of assumptions. But all are reasonable.

Disc golf manufacturers do a lot less for touring pros than you think. Also, you had to register for worlds when signup opened. Those that didn't got left out.

 

[JC17393]

I know we are talking about two different issues here. I'm referring to the Women's division and you're probably talking about the Men's OPEN division.

The women only had eight spots. That's 8. Even when other women tried to sign up, they said no. So that's my issue. We try to get women to play and we charge them full price for their membership and then we stack the deck against them.

Did these women know there were only 8 spots to be filled when they received their invitation packets? Hell yes they did. If they hesitated in signing up, for whatever reason, they're out of luck unless people have to drop. I understand the sentiment about getting women to play, but you have to draw the line somewhere simply based on logistics.

I mean, if you have a local C-tier that is capped at 90 players (18 holes X 5 players per group) and once it fills, you have 2 more women who want to sign up, do you expand the tournament somehow to get them in? Kick out a couple men to make room? How far do you bend over to accommodate them? Hell, how far do you bend over to accommodate anyone who failed to sign up before it filled?

I'll say it again: Logistics. There are only so many courses, so many hours in a day/week, and so many volunteers to staff the event. Somewhere, somehow, a limit has to be imposed due to those reasons alone. This is true for a local unsanctioned event all the way up through a major event like Worlds. You can't accommodate everyone. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

Everyone had a fair and equal chance of signing up when registration opened. It's not like things were sprung on people out of the blue. Invitations went out, registration opened on a specific date, and that's that. People that were too slow to get their registration in before the event filled are out of luck unless they are willing to patiently wait on the waiting list. I can't really comprehend how anyone could find this a foreign concept.

 

[bwgort]

Did these women know there were only 8 spots to be filled when they received their invitation packets? Hell yes they did. If they hesitated in signing up, for whatever reason, they're out of luck unless people have to drop. I understand the sentiment about getting women to play, but you have to draw the line somewhere simply based on logistics.

I mean, if you have a local C-tier that is capped at 90 players (18 holes X 5 players per group) and once it fills, you have 2 more women who want to sign up, do you expand the tournament somehow to get them in? Kick out a couple men to make room? How far do you bend over to accommodate them? Hell, how far do you bend over to accommodate anyone who failed to sign up before it filled?

I'll say it again: Logistics. There are only so many courses, so many hours in a day/week, and so many volunteers to staff the event. Somewhere, somehow, a limit has to be imposed due to those reasons alone. This is true for a local unsanctioned event all the way up through a major event like Worlds. You can't accommodate everyone. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

Everyone had a fair and equal chance of signing up when registration opened. It's not like things were sprung on people out of the blue. Invitations went out, registration opened on a specific date, and that's that. People that were too slow to get their registration in before the event filled are out of luck unless they are willing to patiently wait on the waiting list. I can't really comprehend how anyone could find this a foreign concept.

More eloquently put than I ever could. Spot on.

 

[AndyJB]

Disc golf manufacturers do a lot less for touring pros than you think. Also, you had to register for worlds when signup opened. Those that didn't got left out.

I understand that. Discraft is also not known for supporting it's players, even more so than other companies. Just a shame that a good guy like MJ got left out. I assume he has a full - time job and probably just missed the windows. Bummer for sure, but the ms the breaks I guess.

 

[lbond]

These aren't Tom Nobody's, these are people who are/were either high ams or on the outskirts of top level play. If you put 100 people rated 900 in a world competition against Mcbeth alone, none of them would even come close to beating him.

This is exactly what I'm saying. I was on break at work or I would have said this first. A 1000+ rated player isn't ol' Tony Nobody (original name) especially if he is a local. If a no name top 100 ranked player came out and managed to actually put together 5 days worth of golf that beats a top 10 player then I would be a little shocked but not unhappy in the slightest. That's a fun match to watch.

But assuming anybody with a rating lower than 1000, even a local, is going to come out and beat the best in the world is nuts.

I don't care if they choose to switch this to a 1000+ rating invite only, but the argument that someone else is going to win is incorrect.

p.s.

Who care where McBeth was when he won it the first time, because he also won it again after that to prove himself.

And bringing up the Minnesota Majestic is a moot point. I know that's a big tournament but this is the World Championships. Nobody's name is on a disc for winning the Majestic.

 

[lbond]

Yes they are. But with almost 140 "1000 rated" players in the world, they don't even rank in the top 75. So given their achievement over much higher rated 1000 rated players who have more talent, experience, etc. it makes their achievement that much more impressive.
1013 Alex beat 1047 rated Wysocki. Isn't that impressive? 34 rating points?

I'm not a fan of the rating system but as it is the only measure we use in our game at the moment, it makes the "tom nobody's" achievements pretty noteworthy. But it shows that anyone can win and not just the highest rated player in the field with the most experience and talent.

How did Wysocki beat McBeth in Japan but then lose to him two weeks later in KC?

How did Catrina beat Paige in KC one year and then lose so horribly to her the next?

The point I'm trying to make is that you never know who is going to win and you can't just open the field for favorites.

Yet again, these are four of the main favorites. And being ranked in the tope 140 in the world definitely makes you not a Tony No-Name. I think it would add a ton of weight to the title in the eyes of people that don't take the sport seriously if the Worlds were a competition of the top 140. Plus age and sex protected divisions.

Argument over.

 

[Major Tomahawk]

Where can I find

the wait list for Pro Worlds in Portland?

 

[agibson]

Loomis had said:

There are paid employees working for the PDGA. Paid very well, I might point out. And the organization has money.
I say you can make wild accusations about the PDGA financials, or you can provide a link to the evidence.

and then Scarpfish chimed in:

I say you can make wild accusations about the PDGA financials, or you can provide a link to the evidence.

To try to save others dome digging (thanks for the link), it looks to me like total PDGA salaries are skosh under $250k per year (this in 2011?). Since they _don't_ list any salaries of employees that means that none of them make more than $100k/year.

I guess we can each decide if being paid hypothetically as much as $99k plus benefits, for the top paid employee of the PDGA, qualifies as "paid very well".

And, I don't think we have an easy way to know how much the top paid employee actually makes.

 

[agibson]

No one opened the field for just favorites, there was a window to register which was told to every qualified player, it's not the PDGAs fault that some people chose not to register.

I don't mind a fairly democratic "open to lots of people" worlds, but I _do_ expect to be able to see the best of the best play there. I'd be disappointed if a big name, a top player, missed out by luck of the draw (e.g. stampede to register in the first hour, or first day). Having a special class of registration, open to the top X players by some qualifying criteria, seems reasonable. Protect their places for a few weeks, or at least a few days or hours, or some such.

If a player and their sponsor were too lazy (?) to register relatively promptly then boo-hoo for them. They'll know better next year. But let's not make this a Ticketmaster stampede, first thirty seconds affair. At least not for the top X players.

 

[Three Putt]

I understand that. Discraft is also not known for supporting it's players, even more so than other companies. Just a shame that a good guy like MJ got left out. I assume he has a full - time job and probably just missed the windows. Bummer for sure, but the ms the breaks I guess.

Here is the thing from my perspective: It's a West Coast World's. We just had another one of these a few years ago and there were the same problems with people who have lived too far away to play in a World's before filling up the field before some top players got registered. Eric McCabe was one of them the last time, and he was the defending WC. Add on top of that the fact that I hear a lot of complaining about how fast tournaments fill in the Northwest, and I end up not surprised at all that MJ is on the outside looking in.

So while personal responsibility is all fine and dandy, it was a known problem going in. Did the PDGA do anything about it? I don't know. Should the PDGA do anything about it or is it every man/woman/child for themselves? Debatable. Your perspective is going to fall on which side of the debate you on.

Personally I think if a manf has a sponsored team and they pony up to be a sponsor at a certain level for World's, they should get X number of spots to reserve for their team. That certainly would have taken care of the situation with McCabe as he would have been one of DCrafts held spots. Given the defection from the DCraft team in recent years, I'd assume MJ would have one this year.

 

[sprintermatt]

I registered at 12:10am, the day registration opened.

Was I worried it was going to fill? YES.

Was I worried it was going to fill after I registered? NO.

Anyone who WANTS TO PLAY should sign up ASAP.

If all those FPMs registered immediately at midnight, the division MIGHT have grown. They adjusted the divisions a few weeks later to address more and less popular divisions.

It all comes down to: you aren't going to please everybody. YOU CAN'T. But you can do what is fair and generally balanced and consistent.

I wish I wasn't playing 5 courses, but oh well, that's how the schedule works.

Oh, and here's the waitlist for those wondering.

http://www.discgolfscene.com/tournaments/2014_PDGA_Professional_Disc_Golf_World_Championships

 

[teemkey]

Personally I think if a manf has a sponsored team and they pony up to be a sponsor at a certain level for World's, they should get X number of spots to reserve for their team. That certainly would have taken care of the situation with McCabe as he would have been one of DCrafts held spots. Given the defection from the DCraft team in recent years, I'd assume MJ would have one this year.

Good point. Ball golf tournaments have "Sponsor's Exemptions" so the sponsors can be sure their players get a spot whether or not the player met whatever qualifications or criteria the tournament set up. This, of course, means the sponsors will contribute more $$$.

 

[sprintermatt]

also, there's not even a wait list for FPM. There are 8 registered with no waitlisters. so is this even an issue?

 

[sprintermatt]

OK, here's one way to allow all those top pros to get in...

Have registration open to TOURING CARD players for X amount of time before general signup.

As is, the only benefit for being a touring card holder is to vote for player of the year and Sportsman of the year... and Hall of fame members.

These are the people who EARNED the right to early registration, and the only tournament that holds spots for touring pros is the Maple Hill Open.

 

[ru4por]

I have a problem understanding why "top touring pros" should be preferred entry treatment over any qualified golfer. This make it better for whom?

 

[Jay Dub]

I have a problem understanding why "top touring pros" should be preferred entry treatment over any qualified golfer. This make it better for whom?

The spectators?