How do people without ratings get into rating protected divisions? They don't have ratings below 900; how do they qualify for Rec? It doesn't say "Can't have a rating over 900" it says "Have a rating below 900". Just oversight? Or is there a decision somewhere about this?
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Ratings and Divisions
- Thread starter Dan Ensor
- Start date
It's at TD's discretion.
That's the practical answer. Otherwise, everyone would be forced to play Advanced for their first tournament, and any additional tournaments until the next ratings update.
If you're asking the legalese question of where this is stated in PDGA rules....I don't know. I don't know that it is. But that's how it's done.
That's the practical answer. Otherwise, everyone would be forced to play Advanced for their first tournament, and any additional tournaments until the next ratings update.
If you're asking the legalese question of where this is stated in PDGA rules....I don't know. I don't know that it is. But that's how it's done.
Like David said, Advanced isn't rating protected. It seems like you should at least have to get a special exception to play a protected division. But maybe that's how it's considered?
What would happen if someone wanted to play an age protected division, but couldn't provide proof of their age?
It's just like playing a handicap tournament with no handicap. You do it until you have a handicap.
At least around here, it hasn't been an issue. The point of ratings-based divisions is to group players of similar skill levels for competition purposes, and even though players are starting out without ratings, I don't recall any cases of it being abused. PDGA membership is pretty prevalent, so we don't have people using their non-member status to dominate lower amateur divisions, or sneak into age-protected divisions.
Perhaps it's a problem in other places. Though I have to say that every time I've read of such claims in the past, they inevitably turned out to be nothing.
There may be a hole in the rules, but if anyone contests the TD's judgment, insisting on dominating Novice or playing in the wrong age-protected division, and appeals it over his head, my expectation is that they won't succeed.
Perhaps it's a problem in other places. Though I have to say that every time I've read of such claims in the past, they inevitably turned out to be nothing.
There may be a hole in the rules, but if anyone contests the TD's judgment, insisting on dominating Novice or playing in the wrong age-protected division, and appeals it over his head, my expectation is that they won't succeed.
I think the goal is to get new players into the tourney scene. What would you suggest?
The tournament I played this past weekend, the winner of Rec opened with a 992 round. The winner of Rec and Int were non-members.
I feel like, if you're over Junior age, you should be ok with losing a few tournaments until you get a rating. And if you're junior age, you can just play junior.
I don't see many problems with it either, but I know of at least one person that avoided buying a membership to play in divisions his rating wouldn't allow (if he had one). People actually threatened to buy him one.
I feel like, if you're over Junior age, you should be ok with losing a few tournaments until you get a rating. And if you're junior age, you can just play junior.
I don't see many problems with it either, but I know of at least one person that avoided buying a membership to play in divisions his rating wouldn't allow (if he had one). People actually threatened to buy him one.
I understand that argument. I guess it just seems like it takes extraordinary circumstances to get someone out of a division, when it seems like the extraordinary circumstances should be to get someone in a division.
I think the Juniors division should be sufficient to get new players into the tourney scene.
But here's a suggestion that I think I've brought up before; an unrestricted trophy only am division to replace Rec. I think Rec is too close to Int anyway. There's rarely much scoring separation between the two (around here).
I've never seen it happen more than once. To me it's just not a big deal if someone plays in the wrong division the first time out. If you're seeing a pattern, talk to the TD. It's definitely within a TD's powers to place a nonmember in a more appropriate division until they get a membership. It's also worth noting that a lot of the people you see put up really hot rounds like that in lower divisions end up later showing that they're really inconsistent, and a 750 round is just as likely as a 950. People only remember that one hot round though instead of looking at the fact that a player has a much lower average than that one round.
I'd say the TD(s) dropped the ball. Rating or not, after a tournament or two he had a record in the area, and TDs should have used that to place him in the proper division. As a non-member, who was he going to complain to?
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
Checking out events that you played at this year...
That is because of the number of MA3 players playing "up" and saturating the MA2 field with MA3 players. And the number of MA2 players playing "up" in the MA1 field.
If you and the other MA2 rated players in your area started playing MA2 instead of MA1, then maybe the MA3 rated players would start playing MA3 and you'd see more of a difference between the two.
Looking at one random event you played in (Mid-America Open):
50% of players in MA1 were eligible for MA2
66% of rated players in MA2 were eligible for MA3.
But back to the OP.
There is a dilemma for TDs on what to do with new players. You want them to keep coming back for more so sticking them in MA1 is not really an option (Most new players are MA3/MA4 level). You are going to have an occasional new lower player rocking a lower division, but they can only do it once. (We track non-members around here to prevent repeat performances.)
If there is a particular player trying to game the system by not joining just to game the system it is easy for the TD to restrict the player's options.
Non members play in ratings-protected divisions only because it is left to the TD to allow/dis-allow it. Non-members don't have a right to MA2/MA3/MA4, they have the privilege to play there granted by the TD. If a non-member is "too good" for a division, the TD has the power to restrict where he plays. As someone's already said, what recourse does the non-member have? Who can he appeal to?
His choice is to not play, play where the TD allows him, or pay the $50 to join the PDGA and gain the full rights of a member. If he's willing to pay the extra $40 (presuming he's already paying the $10 non-member fee) to "bag", so be it. After that, he'll have an official rating to prevent him from doing it again (or to justify he was in the right division all along).
His choice is to not play, play where the TD allows him, or pay the $50 to join the PDGA and gain the full rights of a member. If he's willing to pay the extra $40 (presuming he's already paying the $10 non-member fee) to "bag", so be it. After that, he'll have an official rating to prevent him from doing it again (or to justify he was in the right division all along).
biscoe
* Ace Member *
current system works fine. power is vested in the td which is where it should be.
This is why Rec is one of the toughest divisions to play in if you are actually rated under 900. Most players start in Rec and you see a huge disparity in scores. Im not worried though...1 even and you are out into your correct division, entry is lower and payout is lower so lower risk.
banknwank
Eagle Member
Before you have established a rating, i guess you can register what ever division you want. After a few tourneys, you will see what division you should be playing in. If a guy wants to play rec and cleans house with a few 950 rated rounds, he needs to move up. If every one plays in correct division it makes it more fun for every one. That's why they went through the the trouble of creating player rating and breaking down divisions. In Colorado, it seems like everyone wants to play up to intermediate of rec. half the int field would be out scored by some of the rec guys. rec would be more competitive and fun if people played correct divisions. Real problem is for extreme newb and juniors having a fun and competitive division to play in.
You mean like Novice (MA4) or a Junior division (MJ1 through MJ4). These divisions exist. TDs should really use them if there's a need for them. Rec really isn't supposed to be the catch-all division a lot of tournaments use it for.
bhadella
* Ace Member *
Not buying a rating just to play in a division below your skill level is a pretty dick'ish. Good news is that in the same tournament, everyone in MA1 that shot above 935 and in MA2 that shot over 900 were rewarded in payout. These folks were compensated for playing in the right division.
Tournaments around here, Rec often pays out better than advanced.
The guy I was talking about avoiding a membership wasn't playing this weekend.
MA2 seemed to play just like it should this weekend. Although I couldn't say whether the top few played well or not.
As long as the TD is the one with the power, that's fine. I've never seen anyone without a rating taken out of a division, though (because you guys are right, it's not an issue often at all). So I wasn't sure.
2 problems here:
1 - You are forcing a new tourney player to likely get trashed in advanced. Nothing says come back for more tourneys than a DFL finish....
2 - Ratings updates can take forever. My 1st tourney was in early July and it still hasn't gone official.
Combine the 2 - and you have the potential for a lot of frustration. I would have had to take DFL in advanced my first tourney. Then either continue to do so until this weekend (finally got a rating this week) or take DFL for the remainder of the summer.
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The plus with PDGA events is that you don't necessarily have to wait for official ratings to be calculated to be able to assess a new member or non-member's division. Unofficial ratings for an otherwise unrated player are enough to assign him to an appropriate division in future events. Or at the very least, prevent the player from entering a division for which he's greatly over-qualified.
The only real flaw in basing it on one tournament is that an abnormally good day or an abnormally bad day wouldn't necessarily give an accurate representation of his skill level. But that would be the case whether the numbers are unofficial or official. Doesn't matter if one's 925 rating is based on one round or a hundred, the fact that it is over 900 disqualifies a player from playing MA3 at any sanctioned event.
