True Added Cash

[geoloseth]

Thanks for the clarification - I have a very bad feeling that a lot of tournaments are not following this rule. I see way too many tournaments advertising "added cash" and then the numbers don't add up. Take a look at the 2013 Texas States NT. They advertised $10,000 added cash but unless the greens fees were $6,000 (they only played this tournament on one course) then something looks fishy there.

I don't know what the specifics were for the 2013 TSC but talking with some of the TD's in the north Texas area there are some cities that make running a tournament at their courses very costly. For example McKinney charges $2.50/person for an event (last time I heard from the city), while one of the neighboring cities wanted almost 25% of all money taken in by the tournament. Round Rock might have charged much more than anyone would think in order to reserve the course and comply with city regulations involving sporting events.

I also forget sometimes to look at the added cash to payout in all the pro divisions and not just the MPO and FPO. A lot of the B tiers add $500 but its portioned out to masters and grandmasters as well. I know that the TSC had a fairly large masters and grandmasters field that would have to get some share of the money.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

This statement is on page 4 of the 2015 PDGA Tour Standards:

Net Entry Fees = Gross Entry Fees minus the pass-through fees ONLY. Pass through Fees are: PDGA Per-Player Fee, Greens Fee, Regional or Series Fee, NOT expenses.

So, what counts as a green fee and what counts as an expense? If the parks department wants $1000 to rent the property for the tournament is that a green fee? If not, how in the world is the TD supposed to pay for it without finding a sponsor that is willing to pay that much money for the rental fee? That seems like a lot of work to me.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

At my events, added cash is straight cash going into the pro pool. No players packs or meals are included in the added cash number. Cash is cash.

Having played Pendaries this fall and looking forward to the spring event, I can say that I was impressed with how awesome of a job you did running your event. We need more TD's like you.

 

[JC17393]

So, what counts as a green fee and what counts as an expense? If the parks department wants $1000 to rent the property for the tournament is that a green fee? If not, how in the world is the TD supposed to pay for it without finding a sponsor that is willing to pay that much money for the rental fee? That seems like a lot of work to me.

The greens fee is what it costs to use the course for the tournament. If the parks dept wants $1000, then that $1000 has to come from somewhere, starting with the entry fees. Expenses would be things like supplies (scorecards, pencils, signs, etc), water, food, and things of that sort.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So, what counts as a green fee and what counts as an expense? If the parks department wants $1000 to rent the property for the tournament is that a green fee? If not, how in the world is the TD supposed to pay for it without finding a sponsor that is willing to pay that much money for the rental fee? That seems like a lot of work to me.

That's a good question and it's sometimes a gray area. If the fee to reserve the course alone is $1000 and there are 100 players, the deductible fee per player is $10. However, if the fee includes shelter reservation, then technically the shelter portion of the $1000 should not be deducted.

Most of the time, the exclusive course reservation fee will be separate from the shelter fee on the Park Dept fee sheet to make it easier. As far as finding a sponsor to cover these fees, the Chamber of Commerce or Convention Bureau can be a good source for covering them since they don't want the park dept fees to prevent events from coming to town.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

Most of the time, the exclusive course reservation fee will be separate from the shelter fee on the Park Dept fee sheet to make it easier. As far as finding a sponsor to cover these fees, the Chamber of Commerce or Convention Bureau can be a good source for covering them since they don't want the park dept fees to prevent events from coming to town.

Hmm, interesting.

 

[JohtoVillage]

Odd that as a TD you would bash other tournaments for this. Have you checked with any of them to see if there's any reason for your observed slight, a misunderstanding maybe? A deal fell through at the last minute? Just wondering -- it's so typical of a disc golfer to do the math and whine, seems odd TD's bashing TD's without asking first . . .

Someone has to call people out. This tournament advertised $10,000 added cash. Period. Their added cash was not even close to that amount. If a deal fell through at the last second then that's really bad managing on that TD's part. I don't advertise added cash unless I have it, simple as that. Saying you are going to add $10,000 and then adding somewhere around half of that is not a misunderstanding but shady business. This is the kind of stuff that hurts our sport and ticks off pros who travel to play these tournaments.

In my opinion, its very simple: if you advertise added cash, make sure its done, end of story. I knew a club a few years ago who made an accounting error. Guess what happened? They ate the cost and did what they committed to doing.

 

[JohtoVillage]

I also forget sometimes to look at the added cash to payout in all the pro divisions and not just the MPO and FPO. A lot of the B tiers add $500 but its portioned out to masters and grandmasters as well. I know that the TSC had a fairly large masters and grandmasters field that would have to get some share of the money.

In this specific example, I looked at all divisions and not just MPO. The math doesn't add up. As I said, I am really just trying to encourage TD's to do this correctly. Don't say you are going to add a certain amount of added cash to the pro divisions if you don't have it committed. Total pro entry fees were just under $17,000 and the total purse was $21,000, which would equal the minimum amount of added cash to pro divisions for an NT. I highly doubt that the local park charged them $6,000 to play on their course. Even if the park charged them a fee as mentioned above (even if it was $5 per person), that's still less than $700. I would never call out a tournament if it was over a few hundred, but this seems like a $5000 to $6000 error and I think we need to have people that step up and point this out.

Most of the time, the exclusive course reservation fee will be separate from the shelter fee on the Park Dept fee sheet to make it easier. As far as finding a sponsor to cover these fees, the Chamber of Commerce or Convention Bureau can be a good source for covering them since they don't want the park dept fees to prevent events from coming to town.

I highly recommend going this avenue. The local Convention and Visitor's Bureaus support my tournament in great way. I get nearly $8,000 from this avenue.

 

[paulw]

Someone has to call people out. This tournament advertised $10,000 added cash. Period. Their added cash was not even close to that amount. If a deal fell through at the last second then that's really bad managing on that TD's part. I don't advertise added cash unless I have it, simple as that. Saying you are going to add $10,000 and then adding somewhere around half of that is not a misunderstanding but shady business. This is the kind of stuff that hurts our sport and ticks off pros who travel to play these tournaments.

In my opinion, its very simple: if you advertise added cash, make sure its done, end of story. I knew a club a few years ago who made an accounting error. Guess what happened? They ate the cost and did what they committed to doing.

"Calling them out", and whining about them on an internet discussion board aren't the same thing. Were you to contact the TD's, contact the PDGA, contact the players involved that would be calling them out. By not giving the TD's a fair chance to defend themselves you're playing judge, jury and executioner. If your accusations are accurate, you may keep someone from misrepresenting this in the future. If your accusations turn out to be unfounded or misinformed, you may keep someone from running any tournament in the future and be subject to undeserved local ridicule. Also, the idea that there's no possible explanation for them falling short of their advertised added cash mark (one time . . ?) without giving them a chance to explain, seems overly harsh.

As a hypothetical, you email the TD, he/she explains the situation and makes it very clear to you that everyone effected by the occurrence were OK with what happened. The PDGA and the players confirm this and have moved on. What has your "calling out" accomplished now aside from getting your huevos all a tingle?

You're talking about what someone else does with their time, effort and money. Be very careful how/why you criticize them. This message board is full of examples where someone is quick to blame, only to discover the people doing all the work for free weren't really bad after all.

As a disclaimer, I don't know any of these people, I'm just providing unsolicited opinion for no real reason other than it gets annoying listening to TD's getting ripped a new a-hole no matter what they do, even if it is TD on TD crime. If I'm annoying you, do not hesitate to ignore me, you will not hurt my feelings.

 

[JohtoVillage]

"Calling them out", and whining about them on an internet discussion board aren't the same thing. Were you to contact the TD's, contact the PDGA, contact the players involved that would be calling them out. By not giving the TD's a fair chance to defend themselves you're playing judge, jury and executioner. If your accusations are accurate, you may keep someone from misrepresenting this in the future. If your accusations turn out to be unfounded or misinformed, you may keep someone from running any tournament in the future and be subject to undeserved local ridicule. Also, the idea that there's no possible explanation for them falling short of their advertised added cash mark (one time . . ?) without giving them a chance to explain, seems overly harsh.

As a hypothetical, you email the TD, he/she explains the situation and makes it very clear to you that everyone effected by the occurrence were OK with what happened. The PDGA and the players confirm this and have moved on. What has your "calling out" accomplished now aside from getting your huevos all a tingle?

I did in fact reach out to a few players and reached out to a local TD from Texas. He confirmed it was shady. But as I said, my point was not to specifically call out this tournament but call out the issue. Its simply not acceptable for a tournament to advertise added cash and then not come through. As I said, this problem is easily avoidable by having the cash before announcing you are going to add the cash.

I think you are missing the point though. I am not playing the jury here as the facts are pretty clear here. We know what the entry fees are and we know what the added cash amount was advertised at. The fact is, this tournament advertised $10,000 added cash and it was nowhere near that amount. I am not being speculative or anything like that. If a big sponsor "fell through" at the last second and they lost the money that way, I would encourage a TD to make sure the sponsor has paid before you ever announce they are a sponsor.

You're talking about what someone else does with their time, effort and money. Be very careful how/why you criticize them. This message board is full of examples where someone is quick to blame, only to discover the people doing all the work for free weren't really bad after all.

As a disclaimer, I don't know any of these people, I'm just providing unsolicited opinion for no real reason other than it gets annoying listening to TD's getting ripped a new a-hole no matter what they do, even if it is TD on TD crime. If I'm annoying you, do not hesitate to ignore me, you will not hurt my feelings.

As I said, I probably should not have brought up a specific tournament example as I don't like call out fellow TD's. I just think its an important issue that we need to fix.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

"Calling them out", and whining about them on an internet discussion board aren't the same thing. .

This is a forum which discusses disc golf related topics. No ones whining except when people post long speeches vs actual rebuttals. I think Johns OP is legit along with his proceeding replies.

 

[paulw]

This is a forum which discusses disc golf related topics. No ones whining except when people post long speeches vs actual rebuttals. I think Johns OP is legit along with his proceeding replies.

If this is my response you're referencing, it seemed like an "actual rebuttal" and seemed like the OP took it in the intended manner. If it didn't reach your standard of rebuttal and/or exceeded your length restrictions, feel free to ignore. You won't hurt my feelings -- I promise.

 

[JohtoVillage]

If this is my response you're referencing, it seemed like an "actual rebuttal" and seemed like the OP took it in the intended manner. If it didn't reach your standard of rebuttal and/or exceeded your length restrictions, feel free to ignore. You won't hurt my feelings -- I promise.

As I said, maybe I shouldn't be calling out individual tournaments so I apologize for that. I don't want to discourage people from running events as I know that its hard work.

But these are the kinds of things that people need to know and we need to educate people. Added cash versus added value is one issue we need to look at, as is advertising added cash and then not coming through. I know everyone wants to say they are add "X amount" of cash to their tournament, but I am just saying that the tournament director better back that up before announcing it. And if the situation is fluid, don't advertise the amount of added cash. Let the Tier level speak for itself (where its a B Tier which needs $500, an A Tier which needs $2,000 or an NT which needs $4,000).

 

[peabody]

I would like to see a sheet that has all this on it. Do you TD's have something you could post where us non-tds can have a look at?
You know like:
Pro's fees:
Women's pro fees:
Advanced fees:
Rec fees:

Park dept. fees:
Players pack cost:
Added cash:
ect.

I am just curious as to how you TD's lay this all out.

 

[cjman]

My correspondence with the PDGA has guided me to understand that the PDGA places a Large amount of trust in TDs. Without a player feedback system, word of mouth and internet "bashing", as some call it, is the best way for touring players to limit this behavior. It doesn't take very much effort to notice a difference when you're playing large events week after wee .

That said, better language and standards in the tour guideline document would help. The document has goals listed at the top, I do not believe they are being accomplished.

 

[JC17393]

My correspondence with the PDGA has guided me to understand that the PDGA places a Large amount of trust in TDs. Without a player feedback system, word of mouth and internet "bashing", as some call it, is the best way for touring players to limit this behavior. It doesn't take very much effort to notice a difference when you're playing large events week after wee .

That said, better language and standards in the tour guideline document would help. The document has goals listed at the top, I do not believe they are being accomplished.

There's a player feedback system. There's an event evaluation form on the PDGA site that TDs also have available for their players. Players can also directly email the Tour Manager with questions, concerns, and complaints. Based on numerous conversations I've had with the Tour Manager, people do utilize that option quite often (generally a lot less impactful issues than failing to live up to advertised payouts). And the "tour players" have a lot of direct access to PDGA officials at the larger events, and again based on conversations with those officials, they often get earfuls about one thing or another.

Don't mistake people electing to ignore the direct options and going to social media (twitter, facebook, forums like this) as there not being a system for feedback. We live in an instant gratification world. People would rather utilize social media and get immediate responses even if they're mostly piling on or uninformed guesswork than go through proper channels and have to wait for a response.

As for a sheet with info...it's all in the TD report that gets submitted to the PDGA. And it is exactly that information in that report which the PDGA uses to respond to inquiries and complaints about events (and believe me, they do use it).

 

[cjman]

My comments are based on conversations with the Tour Manager.
He told me there isn't time (resources) to review the event evaluation forms. A more automated system was in the works he shared.
An automated email sent to players after each event with a link to a simple online survey will allow the PDGA to identify events that are outliers very quickly. I hope this comes to fruition.

Since the PDGA is not at the event, and doesn't know what actually was offered or what expenses actually were, the TD sheet should be public information for those who participated. That is what I was after with the Tour Director. They put all of their trust with the TD's, and unfortunately not all deserve it.

 

[DavidSauls]

I would like to see a sheet that has all this on it. Do you TD's have something you could post where us non-tds can have a look at?
.....
I am just curious as to how you TD's lay this all out.

Open
$40 entry less $2 PDGA, $2 SCDGO, $3 greens fee
15 players x $33 = $495 purse
1st $xxxx
2nd $xxxx
etc.

Advanced
$40 entry less $2 PDGA, $2 SCDGO, $3 greens fee, $14 players pack
20 players x $19 = $380 purse
1st $xxxx
2nd $xxxx
etc.

Something like this is the payout sheet I post after Saturday's rounds. It's a C-tier with no added cash.

 

[Timeetyo]

Open
$40 entry less $2 PDGA, $2 SCDGO, $3 greens fee
15 players x $33 = $495 purse
1st $xxxx
2nd $xxxx
etc.

Advanced
$40 entry less $2 PDGA, $2 SCDGO, $3 greens fee, $14 players pack
20 players x $19 = $380 purse
1st $xxxx
2nd $xxxx
etc.

Something like this is the payout sheet I post after Saturday's rounds. It's a C-tier with no added cash.

Kudos for proactively providing that. Transparency is a wonderful thing.

One question for you - what prompted you to post this for each tourney?

 

[JC17393]

Kudos for proactively providing that. Transparency is a wonderful thing.

One question for you - what prompted you to post this for each tourney?

I'd bet it was to counter the inevitable complaints/questions about tournament finances that seem to follow every single tournament no matter how things go down. Doesn't matter how flawlessly a tournament runs and how good the payout is or how much fun is had, there always seems to be someone who desires to be the turd in the punchbowl.

As a TD, I've run the entire spectrum of transparency, from revealing none of the financials to a fully detailed report published with the scores after the event to a fully detailed breakdown of every penny of every entry fee before the event ever takes place (so no one could claim they didn't know what they were signing up for). No matter what you do, someone's still going to try to find something to nitpick. People mistake the pre-event detailing as an a-la-carte menu ("I don't want the player pack, charge me $14 less", etc). People insist the last cash spot should have gotten $5 less so that first place gets $5 more. It's silly some of the things I've seen and heard from people.