Val drops Innova?

[JHern]

Both Val and McBeast are 4X world champions, they should be treated the same by Innova. But they are not. I think it is that simple.

Contrast that with Prodigy, which reportedly has the exact same contracts for women as they do for men.

I LOVE what Valarie is doing, this is Innova's loss. It isn't just about herself, she has spent years standing up for all women in the sport. She is a hero! The next time I'm wondering whether to buy one of Innova's discs vs. a competitor...this will be in the back of my conscience. I hope the same is true for others, too.

PS...Anyone who says the FPO field is small, and not interesting to follow, is an idiot. The parity and competition among those ladies is awesome, I'm on the edge of my seat wtching FPO in almost every major tournament.

 

[discgolfer25]

I think a comparison between a Val Starfire and a hypothetical Sexton Dart would be a lot more fair, especially considering they're both discs no one cares about no matter how well they throw them.

No love for some of my favorite disc man... The Starfire and the Dart are both $. Paul, you can't tell me you've never messed around with a dart.

 

[Nova P]

Here's an idea: how about asking women why they don't like disc golf? And then listen?

Oh, oh! I can answer this one!

Edit: But it would probably be off-topic, so let's not do it in this thread.

 

[holly7845]

Eh...it's more of the competition thing, probably. The Women's Open field in a World's is pretty thin. There are only a handful of players capable of being competitive. The Men's Open field is pretty deep. That makes it harder for a man to show up and win multiple times. It's not so much that there should be no respect for winning the Women's field four times, it's just that it really isn't = to winning the Men's field four times.

That's not Val's fault, of course. That goes back to us being lousy at attracting athletic, competitive females to disc golf.

I think we attract women, it's keeping them that's the problem. There have been plenty of amazing players that could the best ever...if they stilled played. Tschiggfrie, Courtney McCoy, Krystin Nowicki, Colleen Thompson, etc. These girls at the top now have been playing for a decade or more, with the exception of Cat. In order for the females to get to that top Elite level, it seems the process is a very long one.

So...how do we attract and retain?

 

[Finny]

Eh...it's more of the competition thing, probably. The Women's Open field in a World's is pretty thin. There are only a handful of players capable of being competitive. The Men's Open field is pretty deep. That makes it harder for a man to show up and win multiple times. It's not so much that there should be no respect for winning the Women's field four times, it's just that it really isn't = to winning the Men's field four times.

That's not Val's fault, of course. That goes back to us being lousy at attracting athletic, competitive females to disc golf.

The key part is, it's "not Val's fault, of course." And I can't understand why Innova wants to treat an FPO Worlds win as lesser.

Honestly, as I asked earlier, doesn't Val have more competitors to worry about if she plays her best? She's got 3 people who could still beat her. Only ONE guy can beat Paul when he plays his best: Ricky.

Yes, there's more competition below the top four in MPO, but Paul's got one rival.

 

[Finny]

I think we attract women, it's keeping them that's the problem. There have been plenty of amazing players that could the best ever...if they stilled played. Tschiggfrie, Courtney McCoy, Krystin Nowicki, Colleen Thompson, etc. These girls at the top now have been playing for a decade or more, with the exception of Cat. In order for the females to get to that top Elite level, it seems the process is a very long one.

So...how do we attract and retain?

Tough question. I know something that WON'T help: pay them less than men for the same wins.

 

[Emoney]

Geeze. I like Pmcbeth in videos and in person but not on the interwebs lol. Maybe MJ can teach him how to post here and not get caught up in troll traps.

Happy for Val. She seems like a cool person and her exit from Innova was graceful. Props

 

[jeffsk]

Interesting, though slightly but not completely off topic, just realized R-Pro Boss has Wiggins distance record printed on them but Blizzard Wraith's don't reference Jennifer Allen's women's record. Seems to parallel some of the discussion/debate in this thread, though not related to Val leaving on it's own.

 

[Three Putt]

PS...Anyone who says the FPO field is small, and not interesting to follow, is an idiot. The parity and competition among those ladies is awesome, I'm on the edge of my seat wtching FPO in almost every major tournament.

You can say that about any protected division, though..."Boy, those Senior Grandmasters were so close, it was anybody's tournament with four holes to go!" It's still not as impressive to pull out a tight one-stroke win in Senior Grandmasters as it is to win the Open division.

 

[mizunodave]

5. You want to tell a company what you'll do for them. You know what Val's done? WIN WORLDS FOUR TIMES. That's literally what Innova wanted her to do.

That's not what Innova wanted her to do. Innova wanted her to sell plastic. That's all they really want from any sponsored pro. If winning 4x Worlds does that, awesome, but if research says it didn't result in sales *shrug*

Innova is a business and they have to be smart with their investments if they want to hold their market share against the likes of Trilogy. I can't see their P&L but I'm sure there isn't enough extra profit laying around that they can throw money at an unprofitable demographic because "it's the right thing to do."

I love women's DG and watch it as much as the men but if they want the same money and attention the only way Innova et al can afford to give it to them is if they grow the sport and marketability in a measurable way.

Hopefully Val's new focus leads to exactly that.

 

[Finny]

The next time I'm wondering whether to buy one of Innova's discs vs. a competitor...this will be in the back of my conscience. I hope the same is true for others, too.

After this exchange with Paul, I feel the same way. Really leaving a sour taste in my mouth about him and Innova. Sucks when your favorites turn out to be not so great IRL.

 

[Finny]

That's not what Innova wanted her to do. Innova wanted her to sell plastic. That's all they really want from any sponsored pro. If winning 4x Worlds does that, awesome, but if research says it didn't result in sales *shrug*

Then they should only sponsor McBeth. He's the only one who consistently moves plastic. I'd be fine with that. But don't give Sexton and Val the same baseline deal.

 

[corin_brown]

Seems to me that Innova always looks out for #1, themselves. Which is totally fine. They are in the business of making money. Props. They do not, however, seem to be in the business of growing the sport.

I'm leaning this way. Very persuasive.

Everyone knows Innova is the king. They've got all the history, tradition, money, power, technology, experience, research, molds, supply lines, market share, relationships, distribution, etc. Good for them. But I'm not sure how many strategic planning meetings they're running over there, though. Not hiring too many marketing consultants either, it seems.

People on here keep harping on how small the share of disc golfers are women. 8% seems to be the mean number. These folks keep citing this tiny share of the market that women represent like it's a good thing, almost as if they wished it was lower. And they say how "it's just business" when justifying treating women pros poorly. Just business? Is it good business to turn off 8% of your customers? Are all disc golf companies so successful, with growth so high that they can afford to blow off 8% of their customers? How is that good business?

What kind of person who is in the business of selling sporting goods looks at that 8% number and says to themselves, "yeah, that's just about right" and then calls it a day?

If I'm selling the same product to men and women and only 8% of my customers are women, I'm thinking two things:

1. That's a HUGE problem.

2. That's a HUGE opportunity.

 

[Emoney]

After this exchange with Paul, I feel the same way. Really leaving a sour taste in my mouth about him and Innova. Sucks when your favorites turn out to be not so great IRL.

Never meet ur hero's

 

[Three Putt]

The key part is, it's "not Val's fault, of course." And I can't understand why Innova wants to treat an FPO Worlds win as lesser.

Business.

Anybody who was around when the Champ Valkyrie was a JK signature disc heard somebody at some point in all seriousness tell somebody else not to throw it becasue it was a "Women's disc." :| I heard it enough that I'm pretty confident that her signature hurt the sale of that disc. That to me was the bottom line reason that Des Reading and Val didn't get signature discs. I think Innova already knows from experience that it was going to hurt sales.

Now, it's not Val's fault that people are stupid and dumb guys won't buy a disc with a woman's name on it. However, it's asking a lot from a business to do something on principal that they know is a bad business move. They would have to REALLY believe in that something to do that.

 

[phrumphkin]

It's too bad there isn't a good answer to this.

Disc golf is doing a terrible job attracting female participants, especially females who want to compete.

Is it mandatory that more females play and compete in DG though? While there are some amazing female players at the top of the game, isn't it a bit presumptuous of us to expect that it grow and have mass appeal to women? I personally think it's awesome to see new girls get into the sport (and make it up the ranks), but it seems entirely possible that it'll never grow to the extent some people seem to feel it should. I'm OK with whatever direction women's disc golf goes; it might remain a pretty small crowd, it could take another couple decades to grow much.. I almost detect some guilt on the part of guys when they feel they're somehow getting in the way of women getting into the game and staying with it.

 

[DanJon]

How many championships does it take for a man to get a signature disc? Feldberg, Avery, Barry all got a disc from Innova with their first win. Did Val get one on her 1st or 2nd OR 3rd championship?

Those that have listened to me on SmashBoxx know I have brought this up before, Val was slighted in my eyes for years. As are all the women champions from any manufacturer that don't have a disc.

Val is very smart, I am sure she wasn't asking for McBeth money. But think of all the money and prestige she has missed out on over the past 10 years of not having a disc (or 3) with her name on it. It is LITERALLY the least they could do.

I wish Val all the luck, and I am sure we will talk with her soon on SmashBoxxTV for some reason.

Have you ever considered covering the top card of FPO for every major tournament and making it available online after the event?

 

[Three Putt]

Is it mandatory that more females play and compete in DG though?

No, it's not. It's a huge untapped demographic, which seems like a bad idea. But, not mandatory,

 

[Mulligan]

Business.

Anybody who was around when the Champ Valkyrie was a JK signature disc heard somebody at some point in all seriousness tell somebody else not to throw it becasue it was a "Women's disc."

Thats total BS... you and I have evidently been playing a near same amount of time, and I have never heard such nonsense and the talk was my #1 driver from the start.

 

[corndog23]

I agree Corin, and I think that some other companies are starting to realize the opportunity there. Mainly DD with Paige and her new SIGNATURE convict. She's been on the team for all of a week (officially) but already has a signature disc. I also believe DD is focused on attracting as many new players to the game as possible, including women. They seem to be doing things right with their marketing and social media presence.