Inverse, Double Mando or Alternate Mandos

[Doofenshmirtz]

On a course that I am designing, I have a hole on which I was considering a sort of double mando where you must throw around a defined area either left or right. There would be two mando trees and you must NOT throw between them, sort of the opposite of a double mando. Four tournaments, I would mark the mando line between the two trees. Is anyone aware of a similar mando that has been used? Does it work well? Is it too confusing?

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's been discussed before but not sure I heard of an implementation. One thing to consider is which route to place the drop zone if a player misses it.

 

[_MTL_]

On a course that I am designing, I have a hole on which I was considering a sort of double mando where you must throw around a defined area either left or right. There would be two mando trees and you must NOT throw between them, sort of the opposite of a double mando. Four tournaments, I would mark the mando line between the two trees. Is anyone aware of a similar mando that has been used? Does it work well? Is it too confusing?

The answer to this solution is don't design a hole with this feature. I 100% get what you are trying to do, but if this is the only way to make the hole good, it's not a good hole. I would strongly encourage moving the tee or pin or completely removing the hole.

Mandos that are there strictly for design are simply not good holes and are quick lazy ways to fix them.

However, for the sake of this thread, I've seen one successful way of doing this. A course had two tees and this one hole only had one tee. There was a tree that 80% of players went to the left of and the other 20% went to the right of. This tree was a permanent mando. When playing the shorter layout, the mando was left (the easier shot). When playing the long, the mando was to the right.

 

[jjtwinnova]

I think this can get complicated, and if implemented it would have to be explained thoroughly in a player's meeting.

Depending on how wide this tree gap is, you could make a decorative wall, with rocks, or vines. Make it not a mando, but there isn't really a way to go through this.

 

[JC17393]

What is this area that you want to play around and why do you want players playing around it? I agree with MTL that if this mando thing is the only way to make the hole interesting or challenging, it's a bad hole overall. So that's why it would be good to know what it is in the middle that you want players to avoid. Is it just the easiest flight path to the target area? Is it an area you don't want players landing in or walking through for some reason? Is there a safety concern in the area?

Is there a way to accomplish your goal (preventing players throwing through the middle) without the mandos? Trees, shrubs, a wall, an OB area?

 

[DavidSauls]

I don't know that it would be all that complicated. But the rules don't anticipate it, so you'd need a waiver for sanctioned play. Perhaps the simplest way to word it would be for the player to declare which mando he is playing, before he tees off, so after that, the rules would apply normally.

With perhaps the option to change that declaration on the second shot, if needed (such as not reaching the mandos, and kicking from one side of the fairway to another).

Whether it's a good idea is another matter. Depends on what you've got to work with. I'm not a fan of mandos for design purposes, but it sounds this would generally create the same hole as a large impassable object in the middle---and you don't have the object available.

 

[1978]

The answer to this solution is don't design a hole with this feature. I 100% get what you are trying to do, but if this is the only way to make the hole good, it's not a good hole. I would strongly encourage moving the tee or pin or completely removing the hole.

Mandos that are there strictly for design are simply not good holes and are quick lazy ways to fix them.

However, for the sake of this thread, I've seen one successful way of doing this. A course had two tees and this one hole only had one tee. There was a tree that 80% of players went to the left of and the other 20% went to the right of. This tree was a permanent mando. When playing the shorter layout, the mando was left (the easier shot). When playing the long, the mando was to the right.

Mando's that are there strictly for safety are even worse.

 

[1978]

Also, can we get this straight. They are Mando's not Mandy's. Yea i'm talking to you California.

 

[Karl]

Nobody says "mandatory" any more, huh?

 

[Karl]

As Mr. D stated 'for tournaments', I'm assuming that he's intending the "middle flight path" to be 'fair game' for casual play but wishes to "make things a bit harder" for events...and thus eliminating the easiest of 3 potential routes.
Josh, imagine if YOUR hole 3 all of a sudden had a wind-shear that came through and knocked out a path in that center pod...so that everyone now just went "up the middle". Would you redesign the hole? Remember, you don't have a ton of extra space! Maybe this hole (of Doof's) is a kind of a filler hole anyway. Or really helps in the course flow. Etc.
And while not the greatest situation, his solution might be a "remedy" for him to use, no?

 

[Karl]

And 100% agreed that mandatories should NEVER be used for 'safety's sake'.

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's not against the rules so no waiver required. The term "Prohibited Routes" was added to the 2018 rules to better define what a mando means. This inverted mando could be the easiest form to explain mandos to new players. You state/mark "Do Not Cross This Line" which actually has end points, unlike the typical mando with an infinite vector for the missed side and another, now "virtual", one for the made side.

Mandos have gotten a bad rap because they include a penalty AND loss of a variable amount of distance. If mandos did not include a penalty and just loss of distance, they would be seen as a valuable course design technique for shaping route challenges on terrain with a limited number of trees. Missing a mando would only mildly penalize the player and challenge them similar to rough and traps in ball golf.

The way it would work when a player missed the mando is they would mark up to 2 meters behind the mando object on the direct line of play to the basket so they had to shape their next shot around the mando. So players lose distance and have a more challenging next throw but no penalty, similar to what happens when they miss their route through the woods, tick a tree and have to scramble. A single mando tree with this new type of rule would do the equivalent of a wall of trees in terms of shot shaping and providing an appropriate challenge for failure versus the punishment applied under the current mando rule. The only issue is the scattered number of trees need to be tall enough to properly define these mandos.

 

[JC17393]

Josh, imagine if YOUR hole 3 all of a sudden had a wind-shear that came through and knocked out a path in that center pod...so that everyone now just went "up the middle". Would you redesign the hole? Remember, you don't have a ton of extra space!

Funnily enough, that was the hole I was picturing as an example of how to get the effect the OP is after without the mandatories. And yes, if there were suddenly a clean and easy path through the middle of the cluster, I would re-design. How I'd do it would depend on what had been removed and the resulting size/shape of the opening, but it could be as simple as shifting the basket to one side or the other by a few feet to remove the straight-on ace run.

If we're talking a clear cut of the entire cluster, then the re-design would be a bit more extensive but I think there's still enough space to get a good hole out of it. It would just be a different kind of hole than the one that's there now. And that's the key...are you married to a specific type of hole design/challenge or are you simply looking for the best hole the space yields given the terrain and natural obstacles that exist?

 

[Zanguini]

Plant a third tree... between your mando trees.... Eventually people will stop throwing there.

 

[roggenb3]

And 100% agreed that mandatories should NEVER be used for 'safety's sake'.

Why?

 

[biscoe]

Why?

Because they do nothing to prevent bad shots from going where you don't want them to.

 

[joecoin]

Also, can we get this straight. They are Mando's not Mandy's. Yea i'm talking to you California.

I call them "Manda's" since that's the way the word is spelled up to the 5th letter.

 

[joecoin]

Plant a third tree... between your mando trees.... Eventually people will stop throwing there.

In the meantime, get Dikembe Mutombo to stand in the center. Not in my house!

 

[Steve West]

On a course that I am designing, I have a hole on which I was considering a sort of double mando where you must throw around a defined area either left or right. There would be two mando trees and you must NOT throw between them, sort of the opposite of a double mando. Four tournaments, I would mark the mando line between the two trees. Is anyone aware of a similar mando that has been used? Does it work well? Is it too confusing?

That works, and was anticipated by the 2018 rules.

Make sure you mark the line, and don't call it simply "double mando" (which means go between). Just say "Throwing over the line is a Prohibited Route."

 

[_MTL_]

Why?

Because if you have to have a mando for safety, that means you've intentionally designed a hole where there are safety concerns.