Provisional Throws for Abandoned Throws

[korisu]

During a game yesterday, I shanked a drive from a tee at the top of a very large hill. It was getting very dark very quickly, and we lost sight of the disc as it was sailing toward a wooded (in-bounds) area. It had a very small chance of turning back and clearing the woods (it would've taken a miracle to do so), but if it didn't, there was no way I wasn't going to abandon that shot. Since it would've easily taken ten minutes to go down the hill, look for my disc, and go back up the hill to re-tee after abandoning it, and we didn't have that much daylight left, I took a provisional shot right away from the tee. We went down the hill afterward and found my disc, deep in the woods and locked in by trees. I declared it abandoned, and went to the lie of my provisional shot to shoot for my 4th stroke.

Can provisional throws be used alongside abandoned throws in this way? That is, can a provisional throw be made right away, with the expectation that your first throw will most likely be abandoned? My group thinks that this has a high potential for abuse. Rule 809.02.B.1.b of the 2018 revision says that a provisional throw can be used when the group agrees that it may save time; that seems appropriate here. The strange part here IMO is the rest of 809.02.B.1, regarding which throw is used for a provisional - the rule says that play continues from the throw with "the correct lie". However, if you find your disc and it's in-bounds, that's the correct lie; but since you have the option of abandoning that throw for a one-stroke penalty, you're not required to throw from that lie. What options do the rules say that you legally have in this situation, and in what order are you required to take them?

Any input from anyone with any sort of authority on PDGA rules interpretation would be very appreciated here. I'd like to put this argument to rest.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think the rules were purposefully re-written for common sense scenarios like yours.

 

[cheesethin]

So I think.......
Essentially you weren't throwing a provisional at all. You were simply abandoning your original tee shot immediately - which you are perfectly entitled to do, and throwing again from the tee for three. With the explicit assumption that even if your disc was found you would not being playing from that lie because you had abandoned your throw.

A provisional is for when either the status of the disc is unknown, ie IB/OB or lost/found. Or when the correctness of a ruling is being questioned. In your case what you seem to be saying is that you chose to abandon the throw, regardless of whether your disc was subsequently found.

If on the other hand, after shanking your first shot, you had said " I'm throwing a provisional IF I can't find my disc, but if I do find it, I'll play from that lie" - then that would have been correct use of a provisional.

So to answer your question, can provisionals be used alongside abandoned throws, I think the answer is no. Once you declare your intention to abandon the original throw off the tee, then that throw is dead. And there is no need for a provisional.

(What you can't do is declare the first throw abandoned, then change your mind when you get down the hill and choose to play from the original lie in the woods.)

Abandoning a shot negates the need for a provisional.

 

[cheesethin]

........We went down the hill afterward and found my disc, deep in the woods and locked in by trees. I declared it abandoned, .......

Can provisional throws be used alongside abandoned throws in this way? That is, can a provisional throw be made right away, with the expectation that your first throw will most likely be abandoned? .....

Ah, having read what you wrote a bit better, to clarify - no you can't throw a provisional on the basis that you will later, on finding you first throw, CHOOSE whether to abandon it or not. You can't be in a position of choosing which lie you prefer, the original throw OR the provisional as this can lead to abuse.

If you wanted to retain the right to choose whether to use your original throws lie, and possibly not abandon it, then you would need to spend the time going down the hill and looking for it.

Provisionals are for situations where something HAS already happened (the disc is/is not OB) but you just don't KNOW which yet. Not for choices.

 

[DavidSauls]

cheesethin nailed it.

 

[sidewinder22]

IMO the OP's situation at hand would allow it as a fair logical extension, because it would promote speed of play and the status of the disc is unknown/unseen. If you could see the disc from the tee, then that is different situation where it would not be fair.

801.01 Fairness
A. These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

 

[DavidSauls]

Not fair if, in deciding whether to abandon a throw, you already know where the replacement throw landed.

Normally, part of the risk in deciding to abandon a lie---besides the stroke and distance---is the thought that the subsequent throw might land in the same bad place, or worse.

 

[Steve West]

IMO the OP's situation at hand would allow it as a fair logical extension, because it would promote speed of play and the status of the disc is unknown/unseen. If you could see the disc from the tee, then that is different situation where it would not be fair.

801.01 Fairness
A. These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

You don't get to extend rules anytime you want, even for the sake of fairness. There needs to be a point that is not covered by the rules. What point is not covered in this case?

 

[sidewinder22]

You don't get to extend rules anytime you want, even for the sake of fairness. There needs to be a point that is not covered by the rules. What point is not covered in this case?

Being able to complete the round before...

 

[sidewinder22]

The player stated their intention before the provisional that in the rare case the disc cleared the woods, he would take that shot, but he most likely did not clear the woods and would take the provisional in that case.

 

[DG_player]

The player stated their intention before the provisional that in the rare case the disc cleared the woods, he would take that shot, but he most likely did not clear the woods and would take the provisional in that case.

The provisional rules are very specific, outside of appealing a ruling, which is a special case, you can only take a provisional if it unknown whether a throw may be OB, missed a mando, or may be lost.

That being said, in a casual round, under the circumstances described, I would most certainly have no problem with a player taking a provisional as described.

 

[sidewinder22]

The provisional rules are very specific, outside of appealing a ruling, which is a special case, you can only take a provisional if it unknown whether a throw may be OB, missed a mando, or may be lost.

Those qualifications are technically met, it could very well be lost as its whereabouts are largely unknown as no one could see from tee, and it would promote speed of play. Given the existential circumstances of the situation at hand with darkness upon us, speed of play is crucial. The player is not gaining any advantage of choice here by declaring the intention before being able to verify the lie. It's no different than as if it was lost/abandoned.

 

[DavidSauls]

Those qualifications are technically met, it could very well be lost as its whereabouts are largely unknown as no one could see from tee, and it would promote speed of play. Given the existential circumstances of the situation at hand with darkness upon us, speed of play is crucial. The player is not gaining any advantage of choice here by declaring the intention before being able to verify the lie. It's no different than as if it was lost/abandoned.

It's completely different than if it was lost. "Lost" is based in fact; the disc can't be found, or couldn't be found within the 3 minute search period. It's a yes-or-no question. There are no options in declaring a disc lost.

And it's completely different from an abandoned lie. In declaring an abandoned lie, the player doesn't know where his replacement shot might go. It could be the same place, or worse.

A player saying "if it's in the woods I'm abandoning it" doesn't work. The rules don't allow for it, and "in the woods" is a vague reference unless the woods are marked. Edge of the woods? A few feet in the woods? 10 feet? 50 feet? Who decides what's "in the woods" enough to meet the conditions, let alone where the woods begin?

Impending darkness, the urgency of speed, does not grant a waiver of rules---marking rules, stance rules, or anything other ones.

Now, if it's casual play, and the group agrees, certainly. We waive all sorts of rules in casual play. But with the acknowledgement that what we're doing is breaking a rule.

 

[DG_player]

I see sidewinder's point now: there is absolutely no guidance in the rules as to what constitutes the correct lie, aside from apparently putting it up for a vote by the card.

In the case above, assuming you meet the qualifications to declare a provisional, I.E. could be lost, once it's in play it's up to the players to determine the correct lie, so theoretically what was done is within the rules.

This is somewhat bizarre, and I'm not sure why they didn't just copy the USGA provisional rules, which is very specific. If the disc is found in play, the provisional is discarded, and if it's OB or lost, you use the provisional. The fact that they didn't makes me wonder if what Sidewinder contends perhaps was the intent?

 

[philstine]

This is somewhat bizarre, and I'm not sure why they didn't just copy the USGA provisional rules, which is very specific. If the disc is found in play, the provisional is discarded, and if it's OB or lost, you use the provisional.

The provisional rule already does exactly that. The issue here is that the OP's original throw was both found and in bounds, but the OP wants to abandon it and play from the provisional.

The fact that they didn't makes me wonder if what Sidewinder contends perhaps was the intent?

Given the PDGA's long and distinguished record of implementing rules changes without thinking through how those changes affect other rules, it's hard to credit them with foreseeing, much less addressing, this sort of scenario.

 

[JC17393]

What further clarity does the rule need?

There are three, and only three instances in which you are allowed to throw a provisional for the purpose of saving time....in case the original throw is lost, OB, or missed a mandatory.

If you are throwing a provisional for that purpose, then the provisional is only used if one of those three cases is true. If the disc can't be found, the provisional is used. If the disc is OB, the provisional is used. If the disc is found to have missed the mando, the provisional is used. If the disc is found, in-bounds, and hasn't missed the mandatory, the provisional is discarded. There really isn't a gray area to exploit here.

 

[DG_player]

The provisional rule already does exactly that. The issue here is that the OP's original throw was both found and in bounds, but the OP wants to abandon it and play from the provisional.

Unless it's in a different section, I don't see where the rules specify how you determine which is the "correct lie":

The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie.

It seems to be up to the group to determine. Why couldn't they decide it was appropriate to "abandon" a found shot and use the provisional if it would save time? Or more specifically: What in the rules prevents this?

 

[sidewinder22]

Unless it's in a different section, I don't see where the rules specify how you determine which is the "correct lie":



It seems to be up to the group to determine. Why couldn't they decide it was appropriate to "abandon" a found shot and use the provisional if it would save time? Or more specifically: What in the rules prevents this?

Exactly. I don't see where in the rules it prevents this.

A player may choose to abandon a throw by declaring their intention to the group. The abandoned throw and one penalty throw are counted in the player's score, and the player plays from the lie from which the abandoned throw was made. Penalty throws incurred by the abandoned throw are disregarded.

The player declared their intention to the group for the provisional. The group(not the player's choice) decides the correct lie. This is played out and scored exactly the same as if the disc was lost.

These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

 

[JC17393]

Unless it's in a different section, I don't see where the rules specify how you determine which is the "correct lie":



It seems to be up to the group to determine. Why couldn't they decide it was appropriate to "abandon" a found shot and use the provisional if it would save time? Or more specifically: What in the rules prevents this?

You are only allowed to throw a time-saving provisional if you think the original throw may be lost, OB, or missed a mandatory. Therefore the only reason to use the result of a provisional throw is if the original is determined to meet one of those criteria: lost, OB, or missed a mandatory. The rules for determining the correct lie in each case are in the rules governing lost discs, OB discs, or mandatories. The group's role in deciding the correct lie is in determining its status...is it found? Is it in bounds? Did it make the mando? If the answers are yes, then the provisional throw is discarded. It can't be used at all.

 

[sidewinder22]

Being logical is against the rules. :\