Abandon lost disc throw and provisional?

[Doofenshmirtz]

I guess that's the crux of my question. OP says the player just "chose" to decide it was lost...as if they had 2 options (lost or OB). This doesn't strike me as a thing the player gets to choose on. Either the group feels there was compelling evidence it went OB, or they do not.

In an effort to keep the post short and get to the crux of the question presented, I didn't waste time describing in minute detail everything that went on. But, to clear up your incorrect assumption, I will add a few facts. The group was an even number and did not agree on whether the first shot could be abandoned. Nor did the group make a decision as to whether the disc was OB or lost. Under the circumstances, there was a disagreement as to whether the first throw could be abandoned after a provisional was thrown under either a lost or OB call. So, getting back to the part that was described, someone suggested that the player play it out both ways - playing the OB provisional and re-teeing. This allowed the player to chose the disc to be lost, and re-tee, and to prevent a penallty from being assessed if the TD did not agree with him on the abandonment issue. Both ways resulted in the same score, so we didn't worry about it anymore and didn't present the issue to the TD - who probably would not have known how to resolve the issue anyway.

 

[dmoore1998]

In an effort to keep the post short and get to the crux of the question presented, I didn't waste time describing in minute detail everything that went on. But, to clear up your incorrect assumption, I will add a few facts. The group was an even number and did not agree on whether the first shot could be abandoned. Nor did the group make a decision as to whether the disc was OB or lost. Under the circumstances, there was a disagreement as to whether the first throw could be abandoned after a provisional was thrown under either a lost or OB call. So, getting back to the part that was described, someone suggested that the player play it out both ways - playing the OB provisional and re-teeing. This allowed the player to chose the disc to be lost, and re-tee, and to prevent a penallty from being assessed if the TD did not agree with him on the abandonment issue. Both ways resulted in the same score, so we didn't worry about it anymore and didn't present the issue to the TD - who probably would not have known how to resolve the issue anyway.

Thanks for clearing that up! When you say the group didn't make a decision about whether the throw as OB...I'm assuming that meant they individually voted, but it was a tie? Which means the tie goes to the side most beneficial to the player...so then the question becomes "what's most beneficial to the player?".

NOW, here's an interesting question (to me). How do we define the tie being the decision most beneficial to the player? Do we consider what the player wants? Do we consider what happened to the provisional (I would say no, but who knows?).

So most beneficial to the player SHOULD be to throw from the drop zone right? If the option is OB and drop zone, or lost disc and re-tee...most beneficial would be the drop zone. Except now we have the foresight to know the drop zone means another OB shot. Do we care what the thrower THINKS is most beneficial to them or what they want? And do we care that they've thrown a provisional so looking at the throw with the provisional taken into account is a different answer than if they hadn't thrown a provisional (since the provisional went OB).

 

[_MTL_]

Is it a courtesy warning if I am returning a disc to my bag/cart and the next player out throw before I return my vision towards the course?

Often times, players are in such a rush to throw they do not give their cardmates the opportunity to watch.

And yes I had a cardmate get upset with me when he lost his disc in the above scenario.

Fairness rule certain applies here and I would say no.

 

[krupicka]

In an effort to keep the post short and get to the crux of the question presented, I didn't waste time describing in minute detail everything that went on. But, to clear up your incorrect assumption, I will add a few facts. The group was an even number and did not agree on whether the first shot could be abandoned. Nor did the group make a decision as to whether the disc was OB or lost. Under the circumstances, there was a disagreement as to whether the first throw could be abandoned after a provisional was thrown under either a lost or OB call. So, getting back to the part that was described, someone suggested that the player play it out both ways - playing the OB provisional and re-teeing. This allowed the player to chose the disc to be lost, and re-tee, and to prevent a penallty from being assessed if the TD did not agree with him on the abandonment issue. Both ways resulted in the same score, so we didn't worry about it anymore and didn't present the issue to the TD - who probably would not have known how to resolve the issue anyway.

A couple points:
- The group does not get to say whether or not a player decides to abandon a throw.
- You cannot abandon a throw to use a provisional throw.

 

[Steve West]

Is it a courtesy warning if I am returning a disc to my bag/cart and the next player out throw before I return my vision towards the course?

Often times, players are in such a rush to throw they do not give their cardmates the opportunity to watch.

And yes I had a cardmate get upset with me when he lost his disc in the above scenario.

It could be. You must: "Watch the other members of the group throw in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs."

Sure, a player cannot impose a courtesy warning on you by waiting until your back is turned to throw - that would be unsportsmanlike. But if you are always missing their throw, you should change your routine and wait to do your chores until after you watch them.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

A couple points:
- The group does not get to say whether or not a player decides to abandon a throw.
- You cannot abandon a throw to use a provisional throw.

What you and at least one other seem to be missing is that the group could not decide on the correct rule interpretation regarding abandonment after a provisional was thrown and we didn't have the benefit of your fiat to decide the issue for us. So rather than awaiting a consensus of the people who responded to the OP, we let it be played out both ways to prevent the player from suffering from an incorrect interpretation of a rule in a situation none of us had encountered before.

 

[robdeforge]

interesting situation in FPO Waco today, round 2. hole 15 I believe.

a player throws their disc that goes over the fence to the right OB. I guess there isn't a spotter there to confirm with a red/green flag there, so they all assume she is OB. she throws from where she was last in bounds for her third throw. when they come up to her lie from her first throw, whoops she's actually in bounds... they had to call over a rules person, then the TD, then a PDGA person to try to clear it up.

my understanding is the result was she played from the lie from her drive with a 1 stroke penalty for misplay, so throwing from there for 3 instead of for 2. similar situation to what happened to Kyle Klein at maple hill a year or two ago if I recall correctly

 

[foxdawg10]

interesting situation in FPO Waco today, round 2. hole 15 I believe.

a player throws their disc that goes over the fence to the right OB. I guess there isn't a spotter there to confirm with a red/green flag there, so they all assume she is OB. she throws from where she was last in bounds for her third throw. when they come up to her lie from her first throw, whoops she's actually in bounds... they had to call over a rules person, then the TD, then a PDGA person to try to clear it up.

my understanding is the result was she played from the lie from her drive with a 1 stroke penalty for misplay, so throwing from there for 3 instead of for 2. similar situation to what happened to Kyle Klein at maple hill a year or two ago if I recall correctly

Yeah, her disc hooked up and slid back to land on the good side of the OB fence. It was blocked so they were not able to see it from the tee. And she didn't think it was close enough to call a provisional.

 

[biscoe]

interesting situation in FPO Waco today, round 2. hole 15 I believe.

a player throws their disc that goes over the fence to the right OB. I guess there isn't a spotter there to confirm with a red/green flag there, so they all assume she is OB. she throws from where she was last in bounds for her third throw. when they come up to her lie from her first throw, whoops she's actually in bounds... they had to call over a rules person, then the TD, then a PDGA person to try to clear it up.

my understanding is the result was she played from the lie from her drive with a 1 stroke penalty for misplay, so throwing from there for 3 instead of for 2. similar situation to what happened to Kyle Klein at maple hill a year or two ago if I recall correctly

Lord only knows why it took that many people to figure it out.

 

[coupe]

Lord only knows why it took that many people to figure it out.

Seems a puzzlement, however, were I to find myself in that position as the thrower, I'm absolutely calling for a tournament official or the TD to confirm or correct my understanding of the pertinent rule(s) and how to proceed.

 

[Steve West]

Lord only knows why it took that many people to figure it out.

Each misplay starts a new "timeline". Watch MCU movies to see how complicated that can get.

 

[robdeforge]

Lord only knows why it took that many people to figure it out.

I think the main problem is everybody involved at the beginning wanted to find a resolution that benefitted the FPO player 100% and didn't punish them for an honest mistake kinda scenario. it wasn't until the PDGA guy showed up and was like "yea that sucks, well then it's a misplay" (I don't think we actually heard what was said, but I'm guessing it went something like that) that everybody realized it was just an unfortunate *****y sort of situation

 

[chevis]

it's too bad there isn't some kind of automatic provisional for that kind of situation

 

[biscoe]

It's a little strange there was no spotter on that hole.

 

[BillFleming]

It's a little strange there was no spotter on that hole.

Maybe they couldn't get enough volunteers for all the holes that could have benefited by having spotters.

 

[Steve West]

it's too bad there isn't some kind of automatic provisional for that kind of situation

That would be nice. If you could have and should have called a provisional, you would get to act like you did.

The trouble is, not all players would understand the idea. Some would try to turn it into free do-overs for every throw they didn't like. Some would think the player who correctly invoked it was cheating.

To everyone scanning this without reading carefully, we are speculating about possible future rules. The current rule is: "The player must inform the group that a throw is provisional prior to making it."

 

[chevis]

That would be nice. If you could have and should have called a provisional, you would get to act like you did.

The trouble is, not all players would understand the idea. Some would try to turn it into free do-overs for every throw they didn't like. Some would think the player who correctly invoked it was cheating.

To everyone scanning this without reading carefully, we are speculating about possible future rules. The current rule is: "The player must inform the group that a throw is provisional prior to making it."

gotta list the whole rule, cuz as you say, some would like to use it to throw a 2nd shot for every throw. here's the rest (when to declare a provisional) :

Provisional throws are used:
To save time. A player may declare a provisional throw any time:
The status of a disc cannot be readily determined because it may be lost, out-of-bounds, or have missed a mandatory; and,
The group agrees that a provisional throw may save time.
The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie.

To appeal a ruling when there are different resulting lies. A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole as part of an appeal when a player in the group disagrees with a group decision and an Official is not readily available, or if a player in the group wishes to appeal the decision of an Official. The scores from both sets of throws are recorded. Once the appeal has been resolved, only the score from the correct set of throws is counted.

 

[chevis]

so basically every time you throw from where you went ob (& you can't see your disc), you want to declare it as a provisional.

 

[biscoe]

Maybe they couldn't get enough volunteers for all the holes that could have benefited by having spotters.

Evidently so... still strange with this not being their first rodeo in Waco so to speak.

 

[biscoe]

so basically every time you throw from where you went ob (& you can't see your disc), you want to declare it as a provisional.

yep.