Time saving provisionals

[krupicka]

The Rules Committee is looking at reworking the wording on provisionals to better codify how provisionals should be used.

One question that has come up is on the use of time saving provisionals. Have you used or seen another player use a time saving provisional? Which cases have you seen it used for?

As was communicated in another thread, one cannot use a previously thrown provisional for an abandoned throw. If a player throws an awesome provisional, they should not be able to choose between already known outcomes. But with the inclusion of lost disc as a reason for a time saving provisional, an unscrupulous player could abuse the scenario by not looking very hard for his thrown disc and declaring it lost (essentially to abandon the the throw under the pretense of a lost disc)

Personally I have only seen the use of a time saving provisional for OB situations (for example Hole 1 @ Lake Eureka throwing over the dam, where the spotter is not certain on the OB status of the disc). I'm curious how others have seen the use of time saving provisionals in practice (not theory)

 

[ThrowBot]

I've seen it used for lost discs. Mostly big "Top of the World" shots in Montana wilderness, where an honest shank might mean you have over an acre of brambley scrubland to comb for your poorly thrown disc. 3 minutes is a joke. A provisional can save you a quarter mile hike and 200' of elevation climb (one way).

Some tournaments have even started using drop zones for lost discs on that type of hole, just to improve pace of play.

 

[BillFleming]

The Rules Committee is looking at reworking the wording on provisionals to better codify how provisionals should be used.

One question that has come up is on the use of time saving provisionals. Have you used or seen another player use a time saving provisional? Which cases have you seen it used for?

As was communicated in another thread, one cannot use a previously thrown provisional for an abandoned throw. If a player throws an awesome provisional, they should not be able to choose between already known outcomes. But with the inclusion of lost disc as a reason for a time saving provisional, an unscrupulous player could abuse the scenario by not looking very hard for his thrown disc and declaring it lost (essentially to abandon the the throw under the pretense of a lost disc)

Personally I have only seen the use of a time saving provisional for OB situations (for example Hole 1 @ Lake Eureka throwing over the dam, where the spotter is not certain on the OB status of the disc). I'm curious how others have seen the use of time saving provisionals in practice (not theory)

With your scenarios, I ask what's wrong with a provisional in those cases? Let's look at them.

one cannot use a previously thrown provisional for an abandoned throw.
- I make a throw, I'm not sure where it lies, so I throw a provisional. That way if the disc is lost, whatever, I don't have to go back to the previous lie. My provisional is thrown with a penalty stroke added. Now I see my previous throw and abandon it. Why should I go all the way back to my previous lie to throw another disc with one penalty stroke? I already have thrown a disc from there with one penalty stroke - my provisional. The penalty is the same - I just saved time by not having to go back to the previous lie.

by not looking very hard for his thrown disc and declaring it lost
-Again, I don't see the issue. I throw a disc that may be lost. I throw a provisional with a stroke penalty. I look for my disc and don't find it (either looked in the wrong place, didn't look hard enough, or it is really lost-doesn't matter). I have to go back to previous throw and throw from there with one penalty stroke. The same as what my provisional is.

In both cases, my provisional is the same as if I went back and threw from the previous lie. One stroke penalty added and throw. A provisional is not a mulligan or a free throw. It is penalized one stroke.

I guess that is the part I don't understand about the disagreements on provisionals. In all the cases, I can go back to the previous lie and throw again with a stroke penalty. That is what a provisional throw is- a throw from the previous lie with a stroke penalty. You just are doing it while the initial throw is in play and then you have to decide which disc will be the disc in play (the initial one or the provisional which has a penalty stroke added).

 

[BillFleming]

While we shouldn't copy ball golf in everything (their rules are horrendous)....take a look at their rules for provisionals. Basically, you can use one any time with one stroke penalty. You can play it as a provisional until you reach your original ball or where it is believed to be. At that time, you MUST decide which one is in play.

The only exception would be if a decision on a rule can't be made. The player should play both, keeping score for both, until the TD rules on the play. For example, a spotter says the disc missed the mando. The card can't decide, so the player plays their initial disc as though it made the mando and a provisional (with one stroke penalty) as though it didn't make the mando. Then the TD decides on whether the initial disc made the mando or not. Then the appropriate score is used. (this happened at a tournament I was at...the spotter felt the disc went too far past the mando on the wrong side, the players weren't sure. The mando was a tree, so it was a decision as to where the line was at - for some reason the painted line was 'missing').

 

[Steve West]

While we shouldn't copy ball golf in everything (their rules are horrendous)....take a look at their rules for provisionals. Basically, you can use one any time with one stroke penalty. You can play it as a provisional until you reach your original ball or where it is believed to be. At that time, you MUST decide which one is in play...

I don't think the player gets to decide in golf.

18.3c(3)/1 – Provisional Ball Cannot Serve as Ball in Play if Original Ball Is Unplayable or in Penalty Area

 

[biscoe]

I have only seen provisionals used in the case of OB personally. What if we got rid of them for lost discs and put the old lost disc rules (last place seen) back into effect? Relative to other penalties in disc golf stroke and distance seems pretty stiff for what is often a random occurence.

 

[DavidSauls]

I've seen the "lost disc" provisional used, but rarely. Usually on "top of the world" holes, where you wouldn't want a player climbing back to the tee. But......players are reluctant to throw a provisional, knowing that if the danger of a lost disc is that great, there's a danger of losing the provisional.

It seems one wording that would preclude players gaining an advantage, would be that the provisional can't be used until the entire group has exhausted the search period. A player can't just casually decide his disc is lost, with a half-hearted search.

Or just live with it. How often is it advantageous for a player to give up 2 strokes, and pay the price of a lost disc, for a better lie? I'd rather live with that rare occurrence, than have the delay of backtracking 400' up a big hill.

 

[krupicka]

I'm surprised for top of the world holes that courses don't put in drop zones for lost discs. That would simplify things greatly. It would save players from potentially losing a provisional throw on top of the first, plus it would speed play.

 

[araytx]

I'm surprised for top of the world holes that courses don't put in drop zones for lost discs. That would simplify things greatly. It would save players from potentially losing a provisional throw on top of the first, plus it would speed play.

That I agree with. You guys in IL should spearhead the "TD guidelines handbook."

With your scenarios, I ask what's wrong with a provisional in those cases? Let's look at them.

one cannot use a previously thrown provisional for an abandoned throw.
- I make a throw, I'm not sure where it lies, so I throw a provisional. That way if the disc is lost, whatever, I don't have to go back to the previous lie. My provisional is thrown with a penalty stroke added. Now I see my previous throw and abandon it. Why should I go all the way back to my previous lie to throw another disc with one penalty stroke? I already have thrown a disc from there with one penalty stroke - my provisional. The penalty is the same - I just saved time by not having to go back to the previous lie.

by not looking very hard for his thrown disc and declaring it lost
-Again, I don't see the issue. I throw a disc that may be lost. I throw a provisional with a stroke penalty. I look for my disc and don't find it (either looked in the wrong place, didn't look hard enough, or it is really lost-doesn't matter). I have to go back to previous throw and throw from there with one penalty stroke. The same as what my provisional is.

In both cases, my provisional is the same as if I went back and threw from the previous lie. One stroke penalty added and throw. A provisional is not a mulligan or a free throw. It is penalized one stroke.

I guess that is the part I don't understand about the disagreements on provisionals. In all the cases, I can go back to the previous lie and throw again with a stroke penalty. That is what a provisional throw is- a throw from the previous lie with a stroke penalty. You just are doing it while the initial throw is in play and then you have to decide which disc will be the disc in play (the initial one or the provisional which has a penalty stroke added).

Bill, I guess you're seeing only the penalty -- not that the player is getting to choose after seeing the outcome. SOMETIMES, just sometimes that second throw, even with a penalty added is WAY, WAY, WAY better than the outcome of the first. And now with your position of "not seeing the problem" you are allowing a player to choose a better throw rather then make that decision in advance -- a HUGE advantage over other players.

If it's an issue, I'd say to krupicka and everyone, just allow the player to throw multiple provisionals. You're not sure if you are (IB/OB, lost/found, missed/made mando, etc.). Just have the player declare provisional with a reason: "Here's my throw 3-OB, in case I'm out of bounds" (then throw), and "here's my 3-L in case I'm lost" (then throw). All that is much more fair to save time than the retroactive I-get-to-see-what-happened provisional/abandoned. I always ask to those who disagree, what if the provisional throw just spikes clean into the basket? As a player I now have very little incentive to "find" my disc. OR, for example, your first example above -- after your tee shot you're not sure if it's in or out or lost, so you just call a provisional. You throw your #3 shot off the tee, and BOOM! it's in the basket. When the group gets up to where the discs are, a card mate sees your original disc inbounds, but the middle of one of the thickest shules in God's creation. You really think it's "fair" for you to be able to say, oops, I want to use my provisional as abandoned throw, I'm taking a 3 on this hole"? Really?

 

[araytx]

The Rules Committee is looking at reworking the wording on provisionals to better codify how provisionals should be used.

One question that has come up is on the use of time saving provisionals. Have you used or seen another player use a time saving provisional? Which cases have you seen it used for?

As was communicated in another thread, one cannot use a previously thrown provisional for an abandoned throw. If a player throws an awesome provisional, they should not be able to choose between already known outcomes. But with the inclusion of lost disc as a reason for a time saving provisional, an unscrupulous player could abuse the scenario by not looking very hard for his thrown disc and declaring it lost (essentially to abandon the the throw under the pretense of a lost disc)

Personally I have only seen the use of a time saving provisional for OB situations (for example Hole 1 @ Lake Eureka throwing over the dam, where the spotter is not certain on the OB status of the disc). I'm curious how others have seen the use of time saving provisionals in practice (not theory)

And to the original question, I see the time-saving provisional as appropriate primarily if it is a blind throw with an OB carry. Otherwise, the group can make a decision.

 

[BillFleming]

One thing I think people are missing, is that a player NEVER has to look for a disc or accept the lie they have. They can always abandon the throw.

One last try and if I don't convince you I'll agree to disagree.

Let's look at Rule 809.01. Abandoned Throw

A player may choose to abandon a their most recent throw by declaring their intention to the group. The abandoned throw and one penalty throw are counted in the player's score, and the player plays from the lie from which the abandoned throw was made. Penalty throws incurred by the abandoned throw are disregarded.

'A player may choose to abandon their most recent throw by declaring their intention to the group.' NOWHERE does it say the throw has to be unplayable, lost, or anything else to be abandoned. By the rule, a player can abandon a disc that is parked at the basket - I don't know why someone would do that, but by the rule they can.

Let's look at two scenarios using that rule.

Scenario 1:
I throw my first shot and walk the 200 feet or so to where it is/should be. It is 'out of bounds, in a tree, in water, in the fairway on a rock, missed a mando, or perfectly in the fairway, whatever, by the rule it doesn't matter', I declare I am abandoning it. No penalties are incurred. I walk the 200 feet or so back to the tee pad and throw again with one penalty stroke added. I get to my disc and my next throw is for three (1 off the tee, 1 penalty for 2, next throw is 3).

Scenario 2:
I throw my first shot and decide to declare I'm throwing a provisional. I throw the provisional and walk the 200 feet or so to where it is/should be. It is 'out of bounds, in a tree, in water, in the fairway on a rock, missed a mando, or perfectly in the fairway, whatever, by the rule it doesn't matter', I declare I am abandoning it. No penalties are incurred. I declare my provisional in play and my next throw is for three (1 off the tee, 1 penalty for 2, next throw is 3).

Based on the end result, what is the difference between those two scenarios? Nothing. Either way, I abandoned my first throw and am getting ready to throw for 3. Actually there is a difference, in scenario 1 had to waste time walking back to the tee pad.

My suggested wording for the rule on Provisionals would be something like this:

A provisional throw is used to save time or if a decision cannot be made on a rule.
A. Throw a provisional if you are unsure of the status of your previous throw. Once the previous throw is found or determined to be lost, you must decide which disc is in play. The initial throw can be abandoned for the provisional with a one stroke penalty. In this case, the provisional is the disc in play.
B. Throw a provisional if a decision cannot be made on a rule. In this case, you will throw two discs until both are in the basket. The original disc will be played from its location and the provisional (with one stroke penalty) will be also played. Two scores will be kept, one for the original lie, and one for the provisional. At the end of the round, the hole will be discussed with the TD or a designated rules official to determine the ruling. At that time, the appropriate score will be the official score.

 

[cheesethin]

Scenario 1:
I throw my first shot and walk the 200 feet or so to where it is/should be. It is 'out of bounds, in a tree, in water, in the fairway on a rock, missed a mando, or perfectly in the fairway, whatever, by the rule it doesn't matter', I declare I am abandoning it. No penalties are incurred. I walk the 200 feet or so back to the tee pad and throw again with one penalty stroke added. I get to my disc and my next throw is for three (1 off the tee, 1 penalty for 2, next throw is 3).

Scenario 2:
I throw my first shot and decide to declare I'm throwing a provisional. I throw the provisional and walk the 200 feet or so to where it is/should be. It is 'out of bounds, in a tree, in water, in the fairway on a rock, missed a mando, or perfectly in the fairway, whatever, by the rule it doesn't matter', I declare I am abandoning it. No penalties are incurred. I declare my provisional in play and my next throw is for three (1 off the tee, 1 penalty for 2, next throw is 3).

Based on the end result, what is the difference between those two scenarios? Nothing. Either way, I abandoned my first throw and am getting ready to throw for 3. Actually there is a difference, in scenario 1 had to waste time walking back to the tee pad.

What are your thoughts/feelings on the fact that in scenario 2 the player gets to see the outcome of two drives BEFORE they have to commit to one of them?

Scenario 3
Same as 2, but player gets to first drive, says 'boy, my provisional really sucked, I'll keep my first shot thanks'.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[DavidSauls]

Exactly. The point of a time-saving provisional is to save time---it otherwise plays out just as it would have if no provisional had been used, except faster.

Using it for an abandoned throw plays out the opposite of how it would otherwise; instead of abandon-then-throw-again, it's throw-again-then-abandon (at thrower's option).

 

[cheesethin]

[On-Topic]
From a previous thread of mine. This is my only experience of a time-saving provisional coming up - though I didn't actually throw one.

Interesting thing came up at a tourney this weekend.

Tee shots on a fairly straight hole with a double mando 45m/150' from tee. Compulsory re-throw from previous lie in force for missed mandos (no DZ, waiver granted). I throw first and I hit one of the mando tree's branches on the bad side and from the tee we can't see where the disc falls - could be safe or equally likely it could have crossed the mando line.

Guy on my card tries to insist that I re-tee/throw a provisional immediately in case I have missed the mando. I don't want to, I'm happy to let the rest of the card throw and then go have a look at where my disc ended up. He references pace of play/time-saving as to why I should throw a provisional. He seemed to be saying I was obliged to immediately re-throw.

What are people's thoughts?

I hope this is helpful krupicka.
I could ask for personal experiences of time saving provisionals on a couple of FB groups if that was useful?
[/On-Topic]

 

[Steve West]

One thing I think people are missing, is that a player NEVER has to look for a disc or accept the lie they have. They can always abandon the throw....

While that is true, "in case the thrower might want to abandon the throw" is not one of the legal reasons for a time-saving provisional.

 

[krupicka]

[On-Topic]
From a previous thread of mine. This is my only experience of a time-saving provisional coming up - though I didn't actually throw one.



I hope this is helpful krupicka.
I could ask for personal experiences of time saving provisionals on a couple of FB groups if that was useful?
[/On-Topic]

While the sample size here is really small, the comments have been helpful. Don't worry about getting other input at this time, but I may hit you later if I think it would be useful.

And to your quoted example, a player should never be forced to throw a time saving provisional. That's something we need to keep in mind if we tweak the wording of the provisional rule.

 

[araytx]

One thing I think people are missing, is that a player NEVER has to look for a disc or accept the lie they have. They can always abandon the throw.

One last try and if I don't convince you I'll agree to disagree.

Let's look at Rule 809.01. Abandoned Throw

A player may choose to abandon a their most recent throw by declaring their intention to the group. The abandoned throw and one penalty throw are counted in the player's score, and the player plays from the lie from which the abandoned throw was made. Penalty throws incurred by the abandoned throw are disregarded.

'A player may choose to abandon their most recent throw by declaring their intention to the group.' NOWHERE does it say the throw has to be unplayable, lost, or anything else to be abandoned. By the rule, a player can abandon a disc that is parked at the basket - I don't know why someone would do that, but by the rule they can.

Let's look at two scenarios using that rule.

Scenario 1:
I throw my first shot and walk the 200 feet or so to where it is/should be. It is 'out of bounds, in a tree, in water, in the fairway on a rock, missed a mando, or perfectly in the fairway, whatever, by the rule it doesn't matter', I declare I am abandoning it. No penalties are incurred. I walk the 200 feet or so back to the tee pad and throw again with one penalty stroke added. I get to my disc and my next throw is for three (1 off the tee, 1 penalty for 2, next throw is 3).

Scenario 2:
I throw my first shot and decide to declare I'm throwing a provisional. I throw the provisional and walk the 200 feet or so to where it is/should be. It is 'out of bounds, in a tree, in water, in the fairway on a rock, missed a mando, or perfectly in the fairway, whatever, by the rule it doesn't matter', I declare I am abandoning it. No penalties are incurred. I declare my provisional in play and my next throw is for three (1 off the tee, 1 penalty for 2, next throw is 3).

Based on the end result, what is the difference between those two scenarios? Nothing. Either way, I abandoned my first throw and am getting ready to throw for 3. Actually there is a difference, in scenario 1 had to waste time walking back to the tee pad.

My suggested wording for the rule on Provisionals would be something like this:

A provisional throw is used to save time or if a decision cannot be made on a rule.
A. Throw a provisional if you are unsure of the status of your previous throw. Once the previous throw is found or determined to be lost, you must decide which disc is in play. The initial throw can be abandoned for the provisional with a one stroke penalty. In this case, the provisional is the disc in play.
B. Throw a provisional if a decision cannot be made on a rule. In this case, you will throw two discs until both are in the basket. The original disc will be played from its location and the provisional (with one stroke penalty) will be also played. Two scores will be kept, one for the original lie, and one for the provisional. At the end of the round, the hole will be discussed with the TD or a designated rules official to determine the ruling. At that time, the appropriate score will be the official score.

Bill --
You are still focusing on the penalty ONLY. It's not just the penalty that is the issue. Let me try another way (my last try) because I do disagree. First 100% I agree that a player can abandon a throw at any time (albeit with a one-throw penalty that you left out there -- 809.01 A).

Your scenario 1: Tee throw = 1. You decided to abandon that throw and go back to the tee. Your "re-throw" from the tee is 3. 809.01 -- you count the abandoned throw plus one penalty throw. So when you re-throw after the abandoned throw (3) and you get to the disc after that, the NEXT throw is for 4.

You keep ASKING what's the difference? It's that in scenario 2, you, the player gets to see the RESULT of the "provisional" throw before you decide to use it. That's not how the rule works. It works that if your situation for which you declared a time-saving provisional comes true, you MUST take it -- no choices. And in either case 1 or 2, (unless my scenario which no one ever answers which is the provisional goes in the basket), the scoring would be the same -- you are still throwing four from where the "re-throw after abandoning throw" or the "provisional, backtracked into calling it abandoned" landed. So the score is not my issue with your scenario.

So to tell YOU the difference, consider these. In scenario #1, you threw your tee shot (1), got up there and looked at where the disc landed, decided you didn't like it, declared it an abandoned throw (penalty-2), and then walked back 200' to the tee box and threw your next shot (#3) from the tee. In scenario #2, you threw your tee shot (1), then declared a "time-saving provisional" in case you are OB, missed mando, lost, or somehow the status cannot be determined -- BECAUSE AS STEVE SAID, those are the reasons you may throw a "time saving provisional" (the only reasons). So, before you walk down there with the group your provisional is throw #3. It has to be. Then you get up to where the discs are, (and here is the difference) you see where BOTH throw#1 and provisional throw #3 landed, THEN you are deciding to (retroactively) declare #1 abandoned once you've seen the outcome of both. AND NO, you don't get to call it 2 from the tee. That 200' isn't saving you 'time', it's allowing you to gauge position and possible future score based on where BOTH shots landed, and you choosing which one to take. I agree with the RC -- you should never get to see the outcome of a throw before deciding to take it or not (for time-saving provisionals). The current provisional rule makes sure you make that determination before you throw.

Fyi, if your suggestion was the rule, players could throw a provisional ('time-saving', can't tell) on every shot or near-errant show they made -- if they don't have to take the provisional and can see the results of multiple throws before deciding which to take. A player could also use your rule for a few warm-up throws if they ever got cold from sitting during a round. You're opening up all of that which the RC has really tight right now

 

[ToddL]

You keep ASKING what's the difference? It's that in scenario 2, you, the player gets to see the RESULT of the "provisional" throw before you decide to use it.

A related story that actually happened to me:
Threw a tee shot on a valley hole, hit a tree, and sailed way way way way down the valley. I hiked down, found the disc, and decided to declare an abandoned throw (it probably would have taken 3+ shots to get back to the basket). I hiked back to the tee pad, threw my (penalty) third throw, and aced it. I got a 3 on the hole! A circle par! A penalty 3!

The question is: Would it have been fair for me to throw that retee first and then hike to my original disc? My first throw is down the valley in the woods, and my second (penalty) throw is in the basket. I hike down to my first throw and decide "you know what? I like that circle 3 better than trying to scramble from here, I think I'll take that shot instead!"
What's to stop a player from using this logic every damn time they hit a tree. "Whoops, hit a tree! Better throw a provisional just in case I decide to abandon that throw!" Then you throw a retee going for an ace run. If you hit an ace, you get to go to your original disc knowing that you have a 3 in your pocket. If your original throw leaves you with a remotely difficult upshot, you can decide to abandon it because you already know your retee was better.

 

[Casey 1988]

I've seen the "lost disc" provisional used, but rarely. Usually on "top of the world" holes, where you wouldn't want a player climbing back to the tee. But......players are reluctant to throw a provisional, knowing that if the danger of a lost disc is that great, there's a danger of losing the provisional.

It seems one wording that would preclude players gaining an advantage, would be that the provisional can't be used until the entire group has exhausted the search period. A player can't just casually decide his disc is lost, with a half-hearted search.

Or just live with it. How often is it advantageous for a player to give up 2 strokes, and pay the price of a lost disc, for a better lie? I'd rather live with that rare occurrence, than have the delay of backtracking 400' up a big hill.

I used this same lost disc provisional due to we could not find the disc after it went into the bushes. The XL had a bad color of tournament stamp in brown and mustered tan color on a clear disc, they should never make Clear discs. Luckily in mid 2000's- early 2010's that was a fad that left.