Provisional throws

[cheesethin]

809.02 Provisional Throw
A. A provisional throw is an extra throw that is not added to a player's score if it is not ultimately used in the completion of the hole. The player must inform the group that a throw is provisional prior to making it.

B. Provisional throws are used:

1. To save time. A player may declare a provisional throw any time:

a. The status of a disc cannot be readily determined because it may be lost, out-of-bounds, or have missed a mandatory; and,

b. The group agrees that a provisional throw may save time.

The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie.

2. To appeal a ruling when there are different resulting lies. A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole as part of an appeal when a player in the group disagrees with a group decision and an Official is not readily available, or if a player in the group wishes to appeal the decision of an Official. The scores from both sets of throws are recorded. Once the appeal has been resolved, only the score from the correct set of throws is counted.

In reference to the two bolded bits.

If you throw a time saving provisional, are you allowed to make subsequent throws from the provisional throw until you have reached the original throw and can find out whether it was OB or not?

IE First tee-shot is 400' but potentially OB. Provisional re-tee is 200' IB. Can the player walk to the 200' shot and continue throwing the provisional 'sequence', until they reach the 400' drive?

The bolded bits show this is clearly OK (and necessary) for a rule dispute provisional. But for a time-saving one, the wording implies not.

It's a subtly of possibly little significance, but we're not busy doing anything else are we?

 

[BillFleming]

I'm not going to quote the original post....but for the answer let's go to PDGA.com>Rules>Rules Questions and Answers where we find this:

QA-PRO-1: What is the provisional throw rule and when should it be used?
A provisional throw is used when a player disagrees with the group's ruling and no Official is available, or when it might save time in case of a possible lost or OB disc, or missed mandatory. Provisional throws allow play to continue by deferring the ruling until the status of the disc in question can be determined, or an Official is available to settle the matter. In the case where a ruling is disputed or uncertain, a player may have to play out from both the original and the provisional throws, essentially completing two legs. Once a ruling has been made, only the throws for the correct leg are counted.

I bolded the part that applies to your question. If you don't know the status of your throw, you can throw a provisional (remember to announce to your group that you are playing a provisional), and you keep throwing the provisional until you reach the initial throw. At that point you and the group make a decision as to the status of the throw in question. Then you play the appropriate disc from that point. If a decision can't be made, you continue to throw two discs until both are holed out; you record both scores and bring it up to the tournament director/rules official to determine which score is valid.

 

[_MTL_]

The situation you are describing would be insanely rare.

While someone throwing a 400 foot shot blindly and going OB is not rare, forcing that person to re-throw or that person choosing to do so would almost never happen.

Saying that, I think your logic is correct.

 

[BillFleming]

(Clarification to my previous reply)...To answer your specific question....the status of your throw isn't known yet. So you throw a provisional until you reach your other disc. At that time, you determine the status of that throw and which throw you should continue from (or can't decide and continue to throw both until both are in the basket, at which case, you get a ruling after the round).

 

[BillFleming]

The situation you are describing would be insanely rare.

While someone throwing a 400 foot shot blindly and going OB is not rare, forcing that person to re-throw or that person choosing to do so would almost never happen.

Saying that, I think your logic is correct.

There are times when you don't know the status of your disc and will want to play a provisional. Using the example of the original post....the disc could be out of bounds in a very poor location and the player doesn't have a good throw from the relief spot. If they play a provisional they may end up with a better lie and choose to abandon their first throw (with a one stroke penalty).

So....throw off the tee goes 400 feet and may be out of bounds or unplayable.
Announce a provisional is being played.
Provisional goes 315 feet. Status of first disc is still not known.
Throw second provisional shot.
Find first disc in a bush with no good throw from that location.
Announce the first throw is abandoned.
Continue with provisional throws now being the 'in play' throws (one stroke penalty for abandoning a throw).

Or throw your first disc 400 feet and you aren't sure of the status.
Throw a provisional.
Get to where the first disc should be and you can't find it.
Instead of playing a lost disc and going back to where you last threw from (400 feet back) and delaying play.....continue to play the provisional as the 'in play' disc. One penalty shot added due to the lost disc.

 

[araytx]

There are times when you don't know the status of your disc and will want to play a provisional. Using the example of the original post....the disc could be out of bounds in a very poor location and the player doesn't have a good throw from the relief spot. If they play a provisional they may end up with a better lie and choose to abandon their first throw (with a one stroke penalty).

So....throw off the tee goes 400 feet and may be out of bounds or unplayable.
Announce a provisional is being played.
Provisional goes 315 feet. Status of first disc is still not known.
Throw second provisional shot.
Find first disc in a bush with no good throw from that location.
Announce the first throw is abandoned.
Continue with provisional throws now being the 'in play' throws (one stroke penalty for abandoning a throw).

Or throw your first disc 400 feet and you aren't sure of the status.
Throw a provisional.
Get to where the first disc should be and you can't find it.
Instead of playing a lost disc and going back to where you last threw from (400 feet back) and delaying play.....continue to play the provisional as the 'in play' disc. One penalty shot added due to the lost disc.

Uh, Bill that's where I think this situation become troublesome. I player declares "Provisional in case I am OB", plays it out, then his disc is later declared lost -- uh, no, imho. That provisional was for OB, not for any situation he might incur. The rules don't explicitly state but strongly imply that you say WHAT the provisional is for. You'll find many situations through these threads where not that exact situation,but allowing a player to back-track his provisional is a problem.

The reasoning is that you can't have already seen the outcome of the throw before deciding to use it. I can give examples if you want.

 

[BillFleming]

Uh, Bill that's where I think this situation become troublesome. I player declares "Provisional in case I am OB", plays it out, then his disc is later declared lost -- uh, no, imho. That provisional was for OB, not for any situation he might incur. The rules don't explicitly state but strongly imply that you say WHAT the provisional is for. You'll find many situations through these threads where not that exact situation,but allowing a player to back-track his provisional is a problem.

The reasoning is that you can't have already seen the outcome of the throw before deciding to use it. I can give examples if you want.

You play a provisional for two reasons.

1. you don't know the status of your throw (out of bounds, lost, etc). So you play a provisional until that is decided. -In this case, you declare you are throwing a provisional until the status of your throw is determined.

2. You don't know the ruling for a throw (is it out of bounds, is two meter rule in effect, etc) and the other players on your card can't decide. So you play a provisional AND the original, scoring two scores for that hole and then get a tournament director/rules official to make the decision on which is correct. -In this case, you declare you are throwing a provision along with the original and will have the TD/rules official determine which score is correct.

You never have to be specific on the reason for a provisional....so you never have to say..."I'm throwing a provisional because my other throw might be lost". All you need to say is "I'm throwing a provisional."

No where in 809.02 Provisional Throw does it say you have to declare WHY the provisional is being thrown. Just that you must declare a provisional is being thrown.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You never have to be specific on the reason for a provisional....so you never have to say..."I'm throwing a provisional because my other throw might be lost". All you need to say is "I'm throwing a provisional."

No where in 809.02 Provisional Throw does it say you have to declare WHY the provisional is being thrown. Just that you must declare a provisional is being thrown.

While that's true, 809.02a indicates the three penalty scenarios - OB, Lost and missed mando - where the provisional throw can be used. If the disc actually did not land in a penalty situation, you may not use the provisional in the event you really don't like where the disc landed inbounds. However, you can Abandon that inbounds lie and go back to throw again plus a penalty.

 

[BillFleming]

While that's true, 809.02a indicates the three penalty scenarios - OB, Lost and missed mando - where the provisional throw can be used. If the disc actually did not land in a penalty situation, you may not use the provisional in the event you really don't like where the disc landed inbounds. However, you can Abandon that inbounds lie and go back to throw again plus a penalty.

And that falls under the 'save time" part of the provisional rule. If you played a provisional, you wouldn't have to 'waste' time going back to your last throw after abandoning your other throw. You play the provisional, come up to your previous disc, don't like the lie, declare it abandoned, declare your provisional as the in play disc, add one stroke for the abandoned lie, and continue with the disc that was the provisional.

So, yes you can use the provisional after abandoning a throw....you have saved time by not having to go back to the spot of the last throw and your group doesn't have to decide where you made your last throw from if it wasn't the tee box.

 

[Cgkdisc]

And that falls under the 'save time" part of the provisional rule. If you played a provisional, you wouldn't have to 'waste' time going back to your last throw after abandoning your other throw. You play the provisional, come up to your previous disc, don't like the lie, declare it abandoned, declare your provisional as the in play disc, add one stroke for the abandoned lie, and continue with the disc that was the provisional.

So, yes you can use the provisional after abandoning a throw....you have saved time by not having to go back to the spot of the last throw and your group doesn't have to decide where you made your last throw from if it wasn't the tee box.

One of the underlying rules concepts is you don't get to choose which result you would like of two different inbounds throws resulting from using a provisional. I'm sure one of the RC posters will or should back this up. Throwing a provisional in case you don't like your inbounds throw is not an option. However, you can agree to abandon your first throw no matter where it ends up landing and throw your third shot from the tee and have to play it.

 

[BillFleming]

One of the underlying rules concepts is you don't get to choose which result you would like of two different inbounds throws resulting from using a provisional. I'm sure one of the RC posters will or should back this up. Throwing a provisional in case you don't like your inbounds throw is not an option. However, you can agree to abandon your first throw no matter where it ends up landing and throw your third shot from the tee and have to play it.

Just to find out....I posted this question (I hope I worded it correctly) to the PDGA Rules Committee. When they post the response or email me with it, I'll post it here.

Provisional Use.

Player tees off and the disc appears to be inbounds, but the player isn't sure about the lie.

Player declares they will throw a provisional and does so.

The group gets to where they can see both discs.

Player decides they like where the provisional lies better. They declare they are abandoning their first throw, adding a penalty stroke (for the abandoned throw), and playing from where the provisional lies.

Is that legal? I believe it is, but the question has come up in a forum and one belief is that you cannot use a provisional if the initial throw is inbounds. You have to declare the disc abandoned and go back and rethrow (one stroke penalty). I say this is where the rule about using a provisional to save time comes into play.

 

[Steve West]

And that falls under the 'save time" part of the provisional rule. If you played a provisional, you wouldn't have to 'waste' time going back to your last throw after abandoning your other throw. You play the provisional, come up to your previous disc, don't like the lie, declare it abandoned, declare your provisional as the in play disc, add one stroke for the abandoned lie, and continue with the disc that was the provisional.

So, yes you can use the provisional after abandoning a throw....you have saved time by not having to go back to the spot of the last throw and your group doesn't have to decide where you made your last throw from if it wasn't the tee box.

No, you can't.

If your lie was in-bounds, it is a correct lie. You must play it. One of your choices on how to play it is to abandon it, go back to the previous lie and make a new throw. But, you cannot use that provisional throw because that throw was not made "in case the lie is crappy". It couldn't possibly have been made for that situation because that's not one of the valid reasons for a time-saving provisional.

You do not have carte blanch to do everything and anything just because it would save time. You only have the right to start a set of provisional throws which is to be used in case of one or more of: OB, lost, or missed mando.

You DO get to choose which of those you are throwing a set of provisional throws for. For example, you may say "I'll throw a provisional in case we can't find that disc." If you then find the disc safe, OB, or missed the mando, the provisional throw vanishes in a puff of smoke. It is no longer there for you to continue to play from.

Although it is not easy to decipher from the rule, it is easy to remember that you NEVER get to make a choice after seeing two lies. After you throw any provisional, the lie you play depends on fate.

 

[krupicka]

Just to find out....I posted this question (I hope I worded it correctly) to the PDGA Rules Committee. When they post the response or email me with it, I'll post it here.

Provisional Use.

Player tees off and the disc appears to be inbounds, but the player isn't sure about the lie.

Player declares they will throw a provisional and does so.

The group gets to where they can see both discs.

Player decides they like where the provisional lies better. They declare they are abandoning their first throw, adding a penalty stroke (for the abandoned throw), and playing from where the provisional lies.

Is that legal? I believe it is, but the question has come up in a forum and one belief is that you cannot use a provisional if the initial throw is inbounds. You have to declare the disc abandoned and go back and rethrow (one stroke penalty). I say this is where the rule about using a provisional to save time comes into play.

Bill, I got your message for the RC, but could not email a response as my hosting provider accidentally deleted pretty much everything on the server. Grrr.

Steve's answer is the longer version of what I would have replied.

You cannot choose to use a provisional throw when opting for an abandoned throw (the list of reasons in 809.02.B is meant to be exhaustive). When you choose to abandon a throw, you need to go back to the previous lie and throw after that choice.

 

[BillFleming]

Bill, I got your message for the RC, but could not email a response as my hosting provider accidentally deleted pretty much everything on the server. Grrr.

Steve's answer is the longer version of what I would have replied.

You cannot choose to use a provisional throw when opting for an abandoned throw (the list of reasons in 809.02.B is meant to be exhaustive). When you choose to abandon a throw, you need to go back to the previous lie and throw after that choice.

Thank you for clearing this up, I appreciate it. It seems like it would have fallen under the 'to save time' part of the provisional throw rule - but that's why we sometimes have to go back to the rules committee to find the facts.

 

[cheesethin]

You never have to be specific on the reason for a provisional....so you never have to say..."I'm throwing a provisional because my other throw might be lost". All you need to say is "I'm throwing a provisional."

I don't agree with this. Not piling on you Bill, but just because it is an interesting point that got slightly masked by subsequent discussion of other points.

A players choice as to what they would do may differ dependent on WHICH outcome happens: OB, missed Mando, or Lost Disc. The obvious one, as Steve said in his post, is when a disc might be lost or it might be OB. The player is obliged to re-tee after a lost disc but they may want to play from last point in-bounds if it is OB. In this case the player should specify before they throw that the provisional is for a Lost disc but not for an OB disc. Had they just declared a provisional and NOT specified what for, then I think they would be obliged to use the provisional for EITHER outcome, Lost or OB.

Another example (which was the impetus for my OP, based off a FB post), is a player tees off and the spotter flags it as OB (note that spotters are not officials so their flags aren't binding). The player doubts the red flag, AND also wonders whether their shot crossed in bounds before going OB. So the player specifies a time-saving provisional just for OB & never crossed in-bounds, but not for OB & did cross in-bounds.

When there is more than one unknown possible AND you would choose differently depending on which unknown happens - then it is in the players interest to specify what the provisional is for.

No where in 809.02 Provisional Throw does it say you have to declare WHY the provisional is being thrown. Just that you must declare a provisional is being thrown.

You are right. The rules don't spell it out. But we can infer the value of doing so. It is in the players own self-interest to do so.

 

[BillFleming]

I don't agree with this. Not piling on you Bill, but just because it is an interesting point that got slightly masked by subsequent discussion of other points.

A players choice as to what they would do may differ dependent on WHICH outcome happens: OB, missed Mando, or Lost Disc. The obvious one, as Steve said in his post, is when a disc might be lost or it might be OB. The player is obliged to re-tee after a lost disc but they may want to play from last point in-bounds if it is OB. In this case the player should specify before they throw that the provisional is for a Lost disc but not for an OB disc. Had they just declared a provisional and NOT specified what for, then I think they would be obliged to use the provisional for EITHER outcome, Lost or OB.

Another example (which was the impetus for my OP, based off a FB post), is a player tees off and the spotter flags it as OB (note that spotters are not officials so their flags aren't binding). The player doubts the red flag, AND also wonders whether their shot crossed in bounds before going OB. So the player specifies a time-saving provisional just for OB & never crossed in-bounds, but not for OB & did cross in-bounds.

When there is more than one unknown possible AND you would choose differently depending on which unknown happens - then it is in the players interest to specify what the provisional is for.



You are right. The rules don't spell it out. But we can infer the value of doing so. It is in the players own self-interest to do so.

Don't worry....I'm not taking any offense. Sometimes the rules aren't quite clear (if they were perfectly clear there would never be any questions about them). And I'm always learning....as a Certified Official, I figure it benefits me to be open and learn how other people interpret the rules and learn what the ruling should be.

However, about your comment about spotters....you are partially right. Normally, spotters are only there to provide an extra set of eyes and a different sight-line; in which case their "decision" is only advice. HOWEVER, the Tournament Director can declare a spotter to be a Tournament Official (if the spotter is a Certified Official AND designated by the Tournament Director) and when the spotter is declared as a Tournament Official then their decision is the rule. For example: I am a Certified Official and volunteered at the Memorial in Scottsdale, AZ. I was a spotter on the last day of play. My decisions were only suggestions (although I only got 'over-ruled' one time)....but the TD could have made me a Tournament Official. But the TD didn't want to have only one spotter a TO and not all of them as that would have led to confusion on the part of the players.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/112 Para A.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

I'm not going to quote the original post....but for the answer let's go to PDGA.com>Rules>Rules Questions and Answers where we find this:

QA-PRO-1: What is the provisional throw rule and when should it be used?
A provisional throw is used when a player disagrees with the group's ruling and no Official is available, or when it might save time in case of a possible lost or OB disc, or missed mandatory. Provisional throws allow play to continue by deferring the ruling until the status of the disc in question can be determined, or an Official is available to settle the matter. In the case where a ruling is disputed or uncertain, a player may have to play out from both the original and the provisional throws, essentially completing two legs. Once a ruling has been made, only the throws for the correct leg are counted.

I bolded the part that applies to your question. If you don't know the status of your throw, you can throw a provisional (remember to announce to your group that you are playing a provisional), and you keep throwing the provisional until you reach the initial throw. At that point you and the group make a decision as to the status of the throw in question. Then you play the appropriate disc from that point. If a decision can't be made, you continue to throw two discs until both are holed out; you record both scores and bring it up to the tournament director/rules official to determine which score is valid.

Going back to this point, I can't really agree that the rule allows multiple provisional throws before determining the status of the first throw. Looking at the language you bolded from the Q&A, in context, "provisional throws" appears to simply be a generic reference to the purpose of that type of throw rather than an intentional pluralization intended to imply that multiple provisional throws can be taken before determining the status of the originally thrown disc thought to be OB. It would be nice if the language were clearer and included in some other place than a description of purpose. By contrast, the "two legs" language for a provisional due to a disputed ruling is more clear regarding multiple throws.

At some point, the status of the original throw should be determined. If a second provisional throw in the same leg is going to be made due to OB/Lost/Mando reasons, its time to figure out whether it is necessary.

This also brings to mind the possibility that a provisional throw looks just like the first throw and is also in doubt. Can a second provisional leg be started?

 

[BillFleming]

Going back to this point, I can't really agree that the rule allows multiple provisional throws before determining the status of the first throw. Looking at the language you bolded from the Q&A, in context, "provisional throws" appears to simply be a generic reference to the purpose of that type of throw rather than an intentional pluralization intended to imply that multiple provisional throws can be taken before determining the status of the originally thrown disc thought to be OB. It would be nice if the language were clearer and included in some other place than a description of purpose. By contrast, the "two legs" language for a provisional due to a disputed ruling is more clear regarding multiple throws.

At some point, the status of the original throw should be determined. If a second provisional throw in the same leg is going to be made due to OB/Lost/Mando reasons, its time to figure out whether it is necessary.

This also brings to mind the possibility that a provisional throw looks just like the first throw and is also in doubt. Can a second provisional leg be started?

You can't have two provisionals in play. It's the same in ball golf. You hit from the tee box, decide to play a provisional (Original Ball/disc (A) 1 stroke, Provisional Ball/disc (B) 3rd stroke). You get to your provisional, but still not near ball/disc A, so you can hit B again (4 strokes). Now you are near ball/disc A, you have to decide which is in play A, now hitting 2 or B now hitting 5.

You can only play a provisional on a ball/disc that is in play....a provisional is not in play until it is declared in play.

 

[araytx]

You play a provisional for two reasons.

1. you don't know the status of your throw (out of bounds, lost, etc). So you play a provisional until that is decided. -In this case, you declare you are throwing a provisional until the status of your throw is determined.

2. You don't know the ruling for a throw (is it out of bounds, is two meter rule in effect, etc) and the other players on your card can't decide. So you play a provisional AND the original, scoring two scores for that hole and then get a tournament director/rules official to make the decision on which is correct. -In this case, you declare you are throwing a provision along with the original and will have the TD/rules official determine which score is correct.

You never have to be specific on the reason for a provisional....so you never have to say..."I'm throwing a provisional because my other throw might be lost". All you need to say is "I'm throwing a provisional."

No where in 809.02 Provisional Throw does it say you have to declare WHY the provisional is being thrown. Just that you must declare a provisional is being thrown.

And that falls under the 'save time" part of the provisional rule. If you played a provisional, you wouldn't have to 'waste' time going back to your last throw after abandoning your other throw. You play the provisional, come up to your previous disc, don't like the lie, declare it abandoned, declare your provisional as the in play disc, add one stroke for the abandoned lie, and continue with the disc that was the provisional.

So, yes you can use the provisional after abandoning a throw....you have saved time by not having to go back to the spot of the last throw and your group doesn't have to decide where you made your last throw from if it wasn't the tee box.

Bill, I've only looked at your first few posts, and I KNOW this rule. You DON'T (ever!) get to see the outcome of the throw then decide to take it or not take it. When throwing a provisional, you are taking (key word "taking") the provisional in case [whatever reason you declare provisional] comes true. You never get to see the outcomes and then choose. I mean what if your provisional throw went in the basket? If I see my disc way up high above 2 meters (with the rule in effect), but nobody else does, can I just walk around 'pretending to look for it' while the rest of the card is clueless? Of course not. I can't "game the system" to get my "in case I'm OB provisional" (which went in the basket for a 3p), and ignore the fact that my disc is realistically in sight of someone either inbounds or out-of-bounds. There is not "choice of lies" on a provisional. I either MUST take the result of my original throw (if my reason for provisional does not come true) or I MUST take the result of the provisional (if the reason for my provisional does come true). I don't get to say, "...hey, I took a provisional for OB, but I'm actually in cr*p-shule-land inbounds, but I want to use my provie as the abandoned throw." NO way at all.

If you get up there and find another condition for which throwing from the previous lie is an option, then you decide at that point to either go back and throw with penalty OR take the result of either option in italics above "The status" above in red, is something concrete (like IB/OB) or (lost/IB), or (made/missed mando) etc. If you want to have a throw in case your disc is lost also, and it's rare but, you can do that by declaring two provisionals. Then you'd end up with throw1- the original throw; throw3a - first provisional in case the disc is out of bounds. and throw 3b - the second provisional in case your disc cannot be found or is declared lost by rule.

 

[araytx]

...HOWEVER, the Tournament Director can declare a spotter to be a Tournament Official (if the spotter is a Certified Official AND designated by the Tournament Director) and when the spotter is declared as a Tournament Official then their decision is the rule. For example: I am a Certified Official and volunteered at the Memorial in Scottsdale, AZ. I was a spotter on the last day of play. My decisions were only suggestions (although I only got 'over-ruled' one time)....but the TD could have made me a Tournament Official. But the TD didn't want to have only one spotter a TO and not all of them as that would have led to confusion on the part of the players.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/112 Para A.

True, however, if a Tournament Director does this, players should also be notified in advance either by caddy book reference, in player meeting before event, or a tee off hole for a tee-time event, that this one specific hole or specific holes have TO's making the calls and which calls they are making. The players shouldn't begin playing a hole NOT KNOWING that on a certain inbound/out-of-bounds line their rulings don't matter. I hate it when a certain situation the TD is called and the provisionals are interrupted or disregarded. If we are the officials on our own card, nothing is hurt by them playing out the set of provisionals.

Going back to this point, I can't really agree that the rule allows multiple provisional throws before determining the status of the first throw. Looking at the language you bolded from the Q&A, in context, "provisional throws" appears to simply be a generic reference to the purpose of that type of throw rather than an intentional pluralization intended to imply that multiple provisional throws can be taken before determining the status of the originally thrown disc thought to be OB. It would be nice if the language were clearer and included in some other place than a description of purpose. By contrast, the "two legs" language for a provisional due to a disputed ruling is more clear regarding multiple throws.

At some point, the status of the original throw should be determined. If a second provisional throw in the same leg is going to be made due to OB/Lost/Mando reasons, its time to figure out whether it is necessary.

This also brings to mind the possibility that a provisional throw looks just like the first throw and is also in doubt. Can a second provisional leg be started?

Possibly true. I took that reference to mean "beginning a set of provisional throws." My issue with the rule is once you start a set of provisional throws, you should either play out both sets of throws completely - OR - give up your provisional completely. I hate when the TD is called out to a hole and the provisionals are interrupted or ignored. Nothing is hurt by playing out both sets of throws to completion.

You can't have two provisionals in play. It's the same in ball golf. You hit from the tee box, decide to play a provisional (Original Ball/disc (A) 1 stroke, Provisional Ball/disc (B) 3rd stroke). You get to your provisional, but still not near ball/disc A, so you can hit B again (4 strokes). Now you are near ball/disc A, you have to decide which is in play A, now hitting 2 or B now hitting 5.

You can only play a provisional on a ball/disc that is in play....a provisional is not in play until it is declared in play.

Well, unlike ball golf you can have multiple provisionals in play but it is rare as I said in a post above, and only under specific circumstances. Particularly since we have both the "save time" provisionals and the "I don't agree with the group's ruling " provisionals as part of our rule book.