Elephant Walk Drill

[RoDeO]

Are you saying a continuous relatively straight line from reachback to release?

Again, focus on the concepts. No one throws with exactly the motions in the various drills. They are meant to help feel various parts of the throw that one might be having trouble feeling.

For example, elephant walk drill to get down the timing of swinging once you are on the leg you are swinging into.

Pendulum for various things; when you get it right (especially along with the concept behind the elephant drill) it will actually decrease rounding by keeping the front shoulder from collapsing. It also helps to get more of the free flowing swinging feel rather than the mechanical robotic throw that can come from trying to "glue together" various parts of the throw. Gets you swinging rather than dragging.

Once you figure out how the pendulum fits in, when you watch all those pros throwing again you will see it.

This thread has a lot that should help: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134415

Straight relatively speaking. The elephant drill teaches an arc motion from high, around and down through the arc and into release. The elephant drill would be fine if you weren't trying to add the arm arc motion in. That will teach bad muscle memory.

 

[sidewinder22]

Straight relatively speaking. The elephant drill teaches an arc motion from high, around and down through the arc and into release. The elephant drill would be fine if you weren't trying to add the arm arc motion in. That will teach bad muscle memory.

Not sure what you are trying to say. The body doesn't work efficiently on flat or straight swing paths.

 

[RoDeO]

Not sure what you are trying to say. The body doesn't work efficiently on flat or straight swing paths.

I'm trying to say that from the side, on some of these elephant drills that arm swings around like the hand of a clock and then into release. Paige Pierce is a great example of a straight flight path as viewed from the side.
https://youtu.be/ZOofFbzTgjo

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm trying to say that from the side, on some of these elephant drills that arm swings around like the hand of a clock and then into release. Paige Pierce is a great example of a straight flight path as viewed from the side.
https://youtu.be/ZOofFbzTgjo

 

[RoDeO]

Paige Pierce. I need say nothing further.

 

[sidewinder22]

Paige Pierce. I need say nothing further.

Glad you agree.

 

[sidewinder22]

Time has proven the power and distance in a disc throw comes from uncoiling the body and reaching relatively straight back and then bringing that disc on a relatively straight line into its release. That's what I mean by that power flight path.
This is wide, narrow, wide. Also wide rail. My throw is similar in starting out wide then bringing it in close. This helps me feel the weight of the disc as it pendulum from wide into narrow.
https://youtu.be/2NNjW2dHoj8

That motion you are speaking of promotes rounding because you are telling your arm to start accelerating from the reach back, in that same circular arc instead of from the power pocket and straight forward. 98 percent of pros don't throw like that.

This is a true power flight path.

 

[SaROCaM]

Straight relatively speaking. The elephant drill teaches an arc motion from high, around and down through the arc and into release. The elephant drill would be fine if you weren't trying to add the arm arc motion in. That will teach bad muscle memory.

Focusing on the wrong thing. The elephant drill teaches delaying the swing until the thrower is on the swing leg. You can replace the arm swing you see in the drill with whatever swing you want if that allows you to understand the drill better. The arm swing shown in the drill keeps it simple and natural. No pulling, jerking, dragging; just a smooth, natural, simple swing that uses natural forces.

I'm trying to say that from the side, on some of these elephant drills that arm swings around like the hand of a clock and then into release. Paige Pierce is a great example of a straight flight path as viewed from the side.
https://youtu.be/ZOofFbzTgjo

Same as above, and like I said earlier, focus on the point of the drill. Also, PP isn't swinging straight or flat from reachback to release. In the video you linked, watch her throwing shoulder and upper arm from the forward pump to reachback through the swing. Pendulum action. The lower arm brings the disc in, then out, but it is attached at the elbow to the pendulum of the shoulder and upper arm. Also, if you take a straight object like a ruler and hold it up to the screen you will see that the disc moves like on a wave (there have already been diagrams showing the wave motion from the side.)

To illustrate further, it is the same thing with the windmill drill. No one is saying to start with the disc above your head for your regular throw. The purpose is for feeling the down shift, working on timing and position, feeling how natural forces like gravity can be harnessed for easy power instead of trying too hard to generate momentum or strongarming. Focus on the concept the drill is training; don't focus on the windmill action. That's focusing on the wrong thing.

Paige Pierce. I need say nothing further.

True, you don't need to do anything, but if you want to understand better, you need to do some more homework. Since you point out PP, there's video where she demonstrates a footwork drill; if you were there, would you tell her that's not how she throws, or would you try and figure out why she is demonstrating that drill?

 

[RoDeO]

Focusing on the wrong thing. The elephant drill teaches delaying the swing until the thrower is on the swing leg. You can replace the arm swing you see in the drill with whatever swing you want if that allows you to understand the drill better. The arm swing shown in the drill keeps it simple and natural. No pulling, jerking, dragging; just a smooth, natural, simple swing that uses natural forces.



Same as above, and like I said earlier, focus on the point of the drill. Also, PP isn't swinging straight or flat from reachback to release. In the video you linked, watch her throwing shoulder and upper arm from the forward pump to reachback through the swing. Pendulum action. The lower arm brings the disc in, then out, but it is attached at the elbow to the pendulum of the shoulder and upper arm. Also, if you take a straight object like a ruler and hold it up to the screen you will see that the disc moves like on a wave (there have already been diagrams showing the wave motion from the side.)

To illustrate further, it is the same thing with the windmill drill. No one is saying to start with the disc above your head for your regular throw. The purpose is for feeling the down shift, working on timing and position, feeling how natural forces like gravity can be harnessed for easy power instead of trying too hard to generate momentum or strongarming. Focus on the concept the drill is training; don't focus on the windmill action. That's focusing on the wrong thing.



True, you don't need to do anything, but if you want to understand better, you need to do some more homework. Since you point out PP, there's video where she demonstrates a footwork drill; if you were there, would you tell her that's not how she throws, or would you try and figure out why she is demonstrating that drill?

I've seen guys doing this elephant drill and they start with the disc really high then swing it way down in an arc and then into release. That's bad muscle memory training. Always practice your motions and drills in the same manner you correctly throw with.

 

[SaROCaM]

Always practice your motions and drills in the same manner you correctly throw with.

Tell that to PP when doing her footwork drill.

Tell that to champion Olympic weightlifters who do drills and motions other than the snatch and C&J.

Tell that to professional MLB pitching trainers who use weighted ball training.

Tell that to athletes and coaches using overspeed training.

Guess you have all the answers while all these professionals are doing it wrong.

 

[RoDeO]

Tell that to PP when doing her footwork drill.

Tell that to champion Olympic weightlifters who do drills and motions other than the snatch and C&J.

Tell that to professional MLB pitching trainers who use weighted ball training.

Tell that to athletes and coaches using overspeed training.

Guess you have all the answers while all these professionals are doing it wrong.

I'm not going to go and do windmill drills and throw looking like a clock. And I think it's bad teaching to instruct others to do such.

 

[SaROCaM]

I'm not going to go and do windmill drills and throw looking like a clock. And I think it's bad teaching to instruct others to do such.

And I think it's bad learning for someone throwing a Mamba for 300' shots to dismiss things that have been proven to work.

But to each his own.

 

[RoDeO]

And I think it's bad learning for someone throwing a Mamba for 300' shots to dismiss things that have been proven to work.

But to each his own.

You fit the classic profile of those who say "you shouldn't throw that disc until you can throw your putter 300 feet". Whatever.

Who cares what discs I have and how far I can or I can't throw them. The Mamba happens to work well for me as a beginner. It is a "beginner" disc you know. I threw it last night for 360 feet but you will probably just say "you must of been all arming it".

I watch a lot of videos and watch a lot of drills. I've learned a lot from them. But then there's these ones where a gut looks like he's imitating an elephant trunk with his arm and throwing it in a long sweeping arc and I just know that's bad teaching. I understand the whole concept of feeling the weight shift but the arm motion needs to be different.

 

[SaROCaM]

I'm not going to go and do windmill drills and throw looking like a clock. And I think it's bad teaching to instruct others to do such.

And I think it's bad learning for someone throwing a Mamba for 300' shots to dismiss things that have been proven to work.

But to each his own.

In case I'm coming off as being harsh:

Look, I think you should be able to throw 400' based on some of the things you have stated. (Again, video would confirm.) I like the previously stated work ethic. I wouldn't be posting so much if I didn't think these things were true.

If you do in fact already have good form (again, video would confirm) throwing perfectly thrown discs, and ~330' ends up being your true ceiling, then that's fine. You reached your potential quickly, but you got there.

It just seems like you're leaving a lot on the table, and the teacher in me finds it difficult to accept that. But everyone works/progresses at their own pace, in their own way.

Again, to each their own.

 

[SaROCaM]

You fit the classic profile of those who say "you shouldn't throw that disc until you can throw your putter 300 feet". Whatever.

And you fit the classic profile of someone who learns a little about something and then talks like they have more knowledge than they do.

Also, I have said it is fine to throw whatever you want. Example:

There are two pathways here (and they don't have to be mutually exclusive)

Who cares what discs I have and how far I can or I can't throw them. The Mamba happens to work well for me as a beginner. It is a "beginner" disc you know. I threw it last night for 360 feet but you will probably just say "you must of been all arming it".

That's good that you made more progress, and I am happy for you. What bothers me is that you state things on here with the certainty of someone who can throw a Mamba 450'.

I watch a lot of videos and watch a lot of drills. I've learned a lot from them. But then there's these ones where a gut looks like he's imitating an elephant trunk with his arm and throwing it in a long sweeping arc and I just know that's bad teaching. I understand the whole concept of feeling the weight shift but the arm motion needs to be different.

You are making it all about you, especially when posting in other people's threads. These drills are helpful for a lot of people, and part of that is their simplicity of focusing on one aspect at a time. Yes, the full throw's arm motion is different, and if you are ready for that and already have good weight shift and timing, then you don't need to do the drill. But don't go into all these threads and say they are bad.

 

[sidewinder22]

But then there's these ones where a gut looks like he's imitating an elephant trunk with his arm and throwing it in a long sweeping arc and I just know that's bad teaching. I understand the whole concept of feeling the weight shift but the arm motion needs to be different.

How do you know it's bad teaching without even trying it?

What about the arm motion needs to be different? The arm/disc matches the shoulder plane and the elbow bends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-5uHMoYJ6Q#t=4m20s

 

[RoDeO]

In case I'm coming off as being harsh:

Look, I think you should be able to throw 400' based on some of the things you have stated. (Again, video would confirm.) I like the previously stated work ethic. I wouldn't be posting so much if I didn't think these things were true.

If you do in fact already have good form (again, video would confirm) throwing perfectly thrown discs, and ~330' ends up being your true ceiling, then that's fine. You reached your potential quickly, but you got there.

It just seems like you're leaving a lot on the table, and the teacher in me finds it difficult to accept that. But everyone works/progresses at their own pace, in their own way.

Again, to each their own.

I know I have form issues. I've only been throwing 6 weeks and have continued to evolve my form. I have watched my distance creep up steadily well over a hundred feet during that period. It continues to keep going up slowly and steadily. Im not sure where my ceiling is or if I'm already about there for my age and genetics. I know there's a lot more to learn. I can generally pick up on concepts pretty well

 

[RoDeO]

And you fit the classic profile of someone who learns a little about something and then talks like they have more knowledge than they do.

Also, I have said it is fine to throw whatever you want. Example:




That's good that you made more progress, and I am happy for you. What bothers me is that you state things on here with the certainty of someone who can throw a Mamba 450'.



You are making it all about you, especially when posting in other people's threads. These drills are helpful for a lot of people, and part of that is their simplicity of focusing on one aspect at a time. Yes, the full throw's arm motion is different, and if you are ready for that and already have good weight shift and timing, then you don't need to do the drill. But don't go into all these threads and say they are bad.

I guess if it works for some that's fine. I would never teach the arm motion portion with the disc though. I coached baseball for quite a few years and never liked all the dorky drills where they make motions and pauses, etc, that aren't natural to the specific motion in live speed. I've seen way too many kinks in kids pitching and batting deliveries over the years because of these drills they were taught in their youth. I learned pretty quickly thst your muscles really do memorize motions and incorporate them without you thinking about it. If you do it enough then your body thinks that's what you want to repeat and so it goes autopilot and repeats.

Simply changing the dangling or swinging arm like a pendulum in the drill will do wonders for teaching correct muscle memory. I practice my delivery all the time without a disc and I always use the same motions. I know it works cause I was talking randomly last night on the tee pad, didn't even think about it and all of a sudden I was throwing the disc.

Instead of dangling the arm or swinging it like a pendulum I would suggest that at least on the drive portion side that the arm is actually mimicking a real drive. The reach back can still be a pendulum swing to get that feeling with the weight transfer but once it's to the other side the body now needs to shift planes and think straight through in coming back to the other side.

 

[sidewinder22]

I guess if it works for some that's fine. I would never teach the arm motion portion with the disc though. I coached baseball for quite a few years and never liked all the dorky drills where they make motions and pauses, etc, that aren't natural to the specific motion in live speed. I've seen way too many kinks in kids pitching and batting deliveries over the years because of these drills they were taught in their youth. I learned pretty quickly thst your muscles really do memorize motions and incorporate them without you thinking about it. If you do it enough then your body thinks that's what you want to repeat and so it goes autopilot and repeats.

IMO there are some differences between coaching youths vs adults, and I can't disagree with your own personal experience in youth baseball, however in my experience with learning to throw BH as an adult from scratch and coaching thousands of disc golfers probably 99% are adults - they often need something heavy and different than a disc to feel something fundamentally different and/or think about the throw in a fundamentally different way. Something to break bad habits. Kids don't generally start with ingrained bad habits, and naturally learn a lot faster than adults.

Simply changing the dangling or swinging arm like a pendulum in the drill will do wonders for teaching correct muscle memory. I practice my delivery all the time without a disc and I always use the same motions. I know it works cause I was talking randomly last night on the tee pad, didn't even think about it and all of a sudden I was throwing the disc.

Instead of dangling the arm or swinging it like a pendulum I would suggest that at least on the drive portion side that the arm is actually mimicking a real drive. The reach back can still be a pendulum swing to get that feeling with the weight transfer but once it's to the other side the body now needs to shift planes and think straight through in coming back to the other side.

I think your general argument here is like saying that a submarine pitch is unnatural compared to overhead pitch, or the long toss drill is bad coaching.

I also think you have some misconceptions about the forward swing in these drills being different. I can tell you that they worked for me.

 

[RoDeO]

IMO there are some differences between coaching youths vs adults, and I can't disagree with your own personal experience in youth baseball, however in my experience with learning to throw BH as an adult from scratch and coaching thousands of disc golfers probably 99% are adults - they often need something heavy and different than a disc to feel something fundamentally different and/or think about the throw in a fundamentally different way. Something to break bad habits. Kids don't generally start with ingrained bad habits, and naturally learn a lot faster than adults.


I think your general argument here is like saying that a submarine pitch is unnatural compared to overhead pitch, or the long toss drill is bad coaching.

I also think you have some misconceptions about the forward swing in these drills being different. I can tell you that they worked for me.

I'm not really seeing any bad information in those videos and diagrams. We were talking of the elephant drill. I think the weight transition part of it is great. Adding the disc to it in the motion maybe not so great. I think one could make one small change to the drill and have it work awesome.

BTW, a submarine pitcher is more analogous to a forehand throw.