Noticing wrong scores after the event

[fishballer06]

Saturday I played in my first tournament of the year. I thought I legitimately had a chance at winning this one based on the field, but instead I shot my worst rated round ever in the first round. So for the second round, I played totally relaxed because I knew I couldn't win any more and I ended up shooting the hot round for my division. That's where it gets interesting.

Because I knew I couldn't win, I didn't bother verifying scores with the live score keeper on my card (I know, my fault) at the end of the round. Come this morning and I'm checking the hole by hole scores and I noticed in my second round, on a par 4 hole, my score is a 5. I know for certain that I birdied that hole (3). This being a 2 stroke swing, and about 22 points in ratings.

I also noticed that the person keeping score had scored himself a 7 on a long, challenging par 5 hole that he actually took a 10 on.

Now the scores are already done, and I don't think it would have made a difference in either of our final placements for the event, but it ethically isn't right. Is there anything I can do at this point with the TD and/or PDGA? Or do I just chalk it up as a learning experience to always verify my scores?

 

[Discette]

Saturday I played in my first tournament of the year. I thought I legitimately had a chance at winning this one based on the field, but instead I shot my worst rated round ever in the first round. So for the second round, I played totally relaxed because I knew I couldn't win any more and I ended up shooting the hot round for my division. That's where it gets interesting.

Because I knew I couldn't win, I didn't bother verifying scores with the live score keeper on my card (I know, my fault) at the end of the round. Come this morning and I'm checking the hole by hole scores and I noticed in my second round, on a par 4 hole, my score is a 5. I know for certain that I birdied that hole (3). This being a 2 stroke swing, and about 22 points in ratings.

I also noticed that the person keeping score had scored himself a 7 on a long, challenging par 5 hole that he actually took a 10 on.

Now the scores are already done, and I don't think it would have made a difference in either of our final placements for the event, but it ethically isn't right. Is there anything I can do at this point with the TD and/or PDGA? Or do I just chalk it up as a learning experience to always verify my scores?

PDGA requires every card to use a backup scoring method. The backup scorecard should back you up.

Going forward, report this to the TD. Your cardmates or the backup scorecard for the round should be able to verify your statements. If the other players can't or won't verify the statements: live and learn. If they can verify the scores, or there is a backup scorecard to verify, then you and the TD will need to give the information to the PDGA Disciplinary committee.

 

[JRW III]

Saturday I played in my first tournament of the year. I thought I legitimately had a chance at winning this one based on the field, but instead I shot my worst rated round ever in the first round. So for the second round, I played totally relaxed because I knew I couldn't win any more and I ended up shooting the hot round for my division. That's where it gets interesting.

Because I knew I couldn't win, I didn't bother verifying scores with the live score keeper on my card (I know, my fault) at the end of the round. Come this morning and I'm checking the hole by hole scores and I noticed in my second round, on a par 4 hole, my score is a 5. I know for certain that I birdied that hole (3). This being a 2 stroke swing, and about 22 points in ratings.

I also noticed that the person keeping score had scored himself a 7 on a long, challenging par 5 hole that he actually took a 10 on.

Now the scores are already done, and I don't think it would have made a difference in either of our final placements for the event, but it ethically isn't right. Is there anything I can do at this point with the TD and/or PDGA? Or do I just chalk it up as a learning experience to always verify my scores?

There is no "fix" to your score. You would gain 2 strokes on the scorecard, but also get a 2 stroke penalty for submitting an incorrect score, so the net would be no change

 

[fishballer06]

PDGA requires every card to use a backup scoring method. The backup scorecard should back you up.

Going forward, report this to the TD. Your cardmates or the backup scorecard for the round should be able to verify your statements. If the other players can't or won't verify the statements: live and learn. If they can verify the scores, or there is a backup scorecard to verify, then you and the TD will need to give the information to the PDGA Disciplinary committee.

Yeah, I agree. Live and learn. One person was keeping live scoring on PDGA, and the other person kept a paper score card. Thinking back on it, at the end of the round, the guy with the paper score card read off each person and the total score they took. The guy doing live scoring just agreed and said he had the same score after each score he read off. More than likely, he was lying by just agreeing with him.

Looking through the PDGA Rulebook, I found rule 808.G.2.

G: After the scorecard has been turned in, the total score as recorded is final, except for the following circumstances:

2. If the total score is incorrect, improperly recorded, or missing, two penalty throws are added to the correct total score. Those penalty throws are not added when the score has been adjusted for other violations determined after the player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard.

In this instance for me, if the score got corrected for myself, my score would improve by the two strokes, but then the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard would bring me right back to where I am.

 

[Discette]

Yeah, I agree. Live and learn. One person was keeping live scoring on PDGA, and the other person kept a paper score card. Thinking back on it, at the end of the round, the guy with the paper score card read off each person and the total score they took. The guy doing live scoring just agreed and said he had the same score after each score he read off. More than likely, he was lying by just agreeing with him.

Looking through the PDGA Rulebook, I found rule 808.G.2.



In this instance for me, if the score got corrected for myself, my score would improve by the two strokes, but then the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard would bring me right back to where I am.

The event results won't change for you, but if this guy was cheating, the PDGA needs to know. If you don't report this to the TD and the PDGA, then this player will be free to do this again. You owe it to every other player in your division and all the players in your region to report the activity. Especially if there is a paper scorecard out there with your correct scores......

 

[txmxer]

The event results won't change for you, but if this guy was cheating, the PDGA needs to know. If you don't report this to the TD and the PDGA, then this player will be free to do this again. You owe it to every other player in your division and all the players in your region to report the activity. Especially if there is a paper scorecard out there with your correct scores......

certainly this is true, but I don't think the guy throwing a 10 on a hole (and apparently just generally sucks) is a big threat to the larger group of players.

Not saying he should be let off the hook...definitely report him or at least talk with the TD and compare paper to digital card.

 

[biscoe]

pretty sure the TD can update the final results until ratings are processed.

 

[DavidSauls]

pretty sure the TD can update the final results until ratings are processed.

I always assumed it was until all prizes are awarded, based on:

"Penalty throws may be added or removed up until the Director declares the tournament over, or all awards have been distributed."

Though I guess that's not entirely clear.

 

[krupicka]

We've had scores incorrectly transcribed from scorecards to leaderboard that have had to be corrected post awards (including adjusting awards)

 

[Cgkdisc]

Looks like the Kentucky Derby might have to adjust payouts after the fact. I wonder how that works for wagers, i.e., are they still waiting to pay out $2 tickets?

 

[DavidSauls]

Looks like the Kentucky Derby might have to adjust payouts after the fact. I wonder how that works for wagers, i.e., are they still waiting to pay out $2 tickets?

And were any of those now-paying tickets torn up and tossed in disgust?

 

[ru4por]

I don't think you will like my take. Lots of stuff seems to have been "loosely handled" and now someone wants to make an issue. There should have been an electronic scorekeeper and a backup. I generally encourage or volunteer to keep a paper score. After each hole, on the next tee pad, scores should be taken. I generally encourage and teach the scorekeeper to call out each name and record each score. Allows both keepers to record without asking twice. I try to play this off as an old man with a high curiosity and bad hearing....yuck, yuck. This really prevents pencil whipping. At the end, I am pushy about you checking your score. I know it is a pain, especially after not playing well, but "forever hold your peace" is usually part of the encouragement.

I am a believer that if you want to skirt the rules, don't whine later.

In short, there were a LOT of ways for you to have prevented the issue. That means you are culpable as well.

I would report the incident to the TD, if I had some proof...like a paper back up card.

 

[acrosley]

There's a guy around here who I guess is notorious for fudging the numbers. Last couple tournaments he was in some people on discgolfscene made some comments to inform the td and whoever else was playing not to let him keep score. Probably doesn't do much good for your current predicament but if you see him signed up in the future might be worth warning the field

 

[ru4por]

There's a guy around here who I guess is notorious for fudging the numbers. Last couple tournaments he was in some people on discgolfscene made some comments to inform the td and whoever else was playing not to let him keep score. Probably doesn't do much good for your current predicament but if you see him signed up in the future might be worth warning the field

I am not one for letting people choose to do the wrong thing, without voicing my opinion, but publicly outing someone is a pretty large leap. If you going to do that, you had better be VERY sure you are correct and be ready and able to prove it. I would still suggesting that reporting it to the TD, if you have proof.

 

[krupicka]

Looks like the Kentucky Derby might have to adjust payouts after the fact. I wonder how that works for wagers, i.e., are they still waiting to pay out $2 tickets?

Wagers are not redone for the Derby or pretty much any other sporting match. Imagine wagers on a NCAA game where the NCAA strips the title away a couple years later due to a recruiting violation.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Wagers are not redone for the Derby or pretty much any other sporting match. Imagine wagers on a NCAA game where the NCAA strips the title away a couple years later due to a recruiting violation.

I know they have to wait until a race's results are declared "official" in case there are any challenges that had to be resolved. But it's interesting that even big payout trifectas and exactas, etc. get paid. (probably in the small print on the ticket)

 

[brutalbrutus]

I know they have to wait until a race's results are declared "official" in case there are any challenges that had to be resolved. But it's interesting that even big payout trifectas and exactas, etc. get paid. (probably in the small print on the ticket)

I actually asked about this on another website because my brother would have won a trifecta if the horse had been DQ'd. Apparently, once the race results are posted official at the track, all betting payouts are fixed. But, the trainer, owner and jockey will have to fork over any prize money they received.

 

[BillFleming]

If UDisc is used, I know you can follow the scores on your device when someone else is keeping score. I'm not sure how that works with PDGA's scoring app.

For UDisc, it might be a hole behind, but you do see the scores entered and can let the keeper know if something is wrong.

 

[biscoe]

If UDisc is used, I know you can follow the scores on your device when someone else is keeping score. I'm not sure how that works with PDGA's scoring app.

For UDisc, it might be a hole behind, but you do see the scores entered and can let the keeper know if something is wrong.

If PDGA Live is being used anyone can watch the scores in (almost) real time.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Kind of on topic - IMO, one of the worst rule changes was to stop requiring players to sign their cards.

I am speaking of paper scorecards - taking away that requirement relieves the the onus of each player being accountable that their score was correct....which in turn removed the one absolute a TD had when approached about incorrect scoring.

A players signature = no excuses, reasons, circumstances....nothing.
No signatures required, opens back up a never ending list of excuses, reasons and circumstances that can be argued/presented by the players.

Makes no sense.