Discs and the quality issues...

[crabapillar]

I think that's part of the problem, when you get a disc of poor quality what do you do? I think most people get their discs from retailer's and not the manufacturer so when that does occur, should it be the retailer that deals with it or the manufacturer? I've reached out a few times and the first response was always, send pictures so we can judge if it's bad or not. To me that's already an issue because it's all subjective, depending on who looks at the picture it may be ok while to someone else it may not be. This just happened to me with a disc I bought from the dynamic discs site. As soon as I picked it up something felt off, there was a decent amount of material missing over half the rim where they appeared to miss when cleaning up the flashing. They agreed to accept it as a return but also at the same time said they don't know if it would affect the flight of the disc. Well any disc that has hit something and took a chunk out of the rim has flown differently afterwards so I would say yeah. And it's a hassle to send a disc back, and today it's unlikely you will be able to get it replaced as there is no supply.

So for me I would consider myself a 3; a bit of both. I don't expect every single disc to fly exactly the same and if a disc I just bought has scratches on it I really don't care. But if it's something obvious or one disc of the same mold is understable out of the box and the other is overstable out of the box, that I would care about.

For example I've bought 3 Teebird's in the last month, all GStar, all orange. One of them is actually Star plastic but stamped Gstar, and the other two are GStar but both have a pretty good sized tooling mark in the rim. And I'm stuck with them because there are no more available, I've waited months for them to become available and really none of them should have made it to a retailer to sell due to quality issues. This is just sloppy manufacturing; it took 30 seconds of holding the discs to know something was off. Am I being too picky, I don't think so. I mean we are paying $15+ for a simple piece of plastic, it isn't multiple parts fitting/working together, it's a singular molded part and they've made it for decades now. Every other industry sees quality improve year after year, there are less defects with basically everything today, even imported parts have outstanding quality these days at very low costs. And if there is an issue with something today; companies seem very willing to make it right in order to maintain their reputation.

 

[crabapillar]

I'm with jakebake; there is no reason they can't produce a better product other than they don't want to or don't care to. My picture of the innova factory in my head is comical, unfortunately if we were to see actual pics it probably wouldn't be too far off.

 

[txmxer]

Where are you buying your discs?

If it is a retailer, they should be resolving these issues and not sending you obviously poor quality products IMO.

 

[crabapillar]

Online retailer's. So you think the retailer should be responsible for checking for quality issues? I think it should be the manufacturer, and I'm pretty confident that is the standard in any manufacturing industry. If parts of poor quality made it to the retailer/consumer it's already too late. The manufacturer just added a ton of additional costs in shipping/packaging and whatever costs required to get their bad products back. Retailer's should be confident that what they're getting from their suppliers is ready to sell; pretty sure target isn't inspecting every piece of clothing they get from their probably millions of suppliers, there is no way they could even.

 

[Ahildy13]

Online retailer's. So you think the retailer should be responsible for checking for quality issues? I think it should be the manufacturer, and I'm pretty confident that is the standard in any manufacturing industry. If parts of poor quality made it to the retailer/consumer it's already too late. The manufacturer just added a ton of additional costs in shipping/packaging and whatever costs required to get their bad products back. Retailer's should be confident that what they're getting from their suppliers is ready to sell; pretty sure target isn't inspecting every piece of clothing they get from their probably millions of suppliers, there is no way they could even.

Big suppliers just do recalls. See Takata.

Every industry has quality problems. You just don't see it unless you're a part of the community that really uses the product, aka DGCR.

 

[txmxer]

Online retailer's. So you think the retailer should be responsible for checking for quality issues? I think it should be the manufacturer, and I'm pretty confident that is the standard in any manufacturing industry. If parts of poor quality made it to the retailer/consumer it's already too late. The manufacturer just added a ton of additional costs in shipping/packaging and whatever costs required to get their bad products back. Retailer's should be confident that what they're getting from their suppliers is ready to sell; pretty sure target isn't inspecting every piece of clothing they get from their probably millions of suppliers, there is no way they could even.

I'm saying that that OTB and Marshall Street look at the discs and they identify flaws and sell based on that. They might overlook some minor detail that you notice, but they make an effort to deliver what you order.

I agree that the manufacturers need to do a better job of delivering quality products to the retailers.

At the same time, I'm surprised that your retailer is sending out products that are flawed. They handle each disc individually and any significant flaws should be noticeable to them.

Basically both the manufacturer and the retailer are responsible if you receive flawed product.

 

[Rastnav]

I don't know what each manufacturer does, but the process described for Lat64 manufacturing in this video doesn't seem like a process where they aren't concerned about consistency and quality:



Maybe I'm being unnecessarily impressed by big shiny machines, IDK. Do people think Lat64 products are more consistent than other manufacturers? The same? Are people mostly just complaining about Innova (who has a certain reputation in this regard)?

The other thing I think worth mentioning is how much the disc golf consumer is actually looking for "inconsistency". There is a consistent push for a specific mold to be produced in a plastic that will provide different properties to the disc than other properties. Whether it's stiffness, wear characteristics, stability, grip, sparkliness, swirliness, etc. there is always a demand for something a little bit different.

Discraft seems to now be producing Tour Series discs in a different, custom, tour series blend each year (AFAIU). Why? I would think it's because that means each year of a given tour series disc is different, rather than being just stamped with a different stamp. There is then reason to buy this year's model.

 

[dreadlock86]

i'm not pointing the finger at anyone but i've tended to think that at least some of the people who have big issues with disc consistency are also people who have evolving form and don't get a lot of practice in, resulting in a lot of ups and downs in their round to round execution.

how many of these flaws are simply cosmetic? i'm guessing probably most of them.

if you buy a disc from an online retailer and the disc looks like it should be an x-out, seems like the thing to do is contact the retailer and say "you sent me what appears to be an x-out, i didn't pay full price just to get an x-out". i'm not convince there is an issue but if there really is one, it's not going to change without pressure on the manufacturers from the retailers.

 

[ru4por]

Shrug...I have never had a disc show up with production issues. And I have bought a lot of discs over the years.

 

[Countchunkula]

^^Not too concerned with the cosmetic issues either, but variations in parting line height absolutely affect flight. That's something that manufacturers could control (if they thought disc golfers would be willing to pay for it).

 

[crabapillar]

We're talking about a singular product here in golf discs, it's all disc golf manufacturer's produce and they've been doing it for decades. At this point they should have it down to a science and the only reason there are still constant issues is because they haven't done anything to reduce them. Look at Innova, they end up with a massive amount of misprints/x-outs which seem to be sold at about 25% less than regular cost. That alone should be enough to drive them to improve their process; if they can minimize that # they can sell a lot more discs at full price. Everyone wins in that scenario, people are getting a better product and Innova is able to sell more discs at full price.

And nothing I'm talking about here pertains to 'cosmetic only' issues; I'm talking about evident flaws in the disc. For example I just bought 2 of the ESP Hornet's infinitediscs has, the black one I received has a huge scratch across the top, could care less. But the other one has bumps and dips across the entire top of the disc, it looks like my most beat in midrange, this is unacceptable to me and should have easily been caught by Discraft.

 

[crabapillar]

So you think that because discs are so inconsistent from one to another; people need to practice more to learn their differences as opposed to just getting a consistent product? LOL I started playing three years ago; it didn't take me long to realize that it's very difficult to find any consistency in discs. Even if you have a very good understanding of how much the plastic type affects the flight; you still know that you can buy one disc today and that same mold 6 months from now and there is a good chance they will fly very differently.

I actually just received some discs in the mail yesterday, two of the same mold and both in the same plastic with a 2g difference in weight. Holding them next to each other they look like very different discs and the plastic feels different. And I would bet they fly very different as well as one is quite flat and the other more domey.

 

[ru4por]

So you think that because discs are so inconsistent from one to another; people need to practice more to learn their differences as opposed to just getting a consistent product? LOL I started playing three years ago; it didn't take me long to realize that it's very difficult to find any consistency in discs. Even if you have a very good understanding of how much the plastic type affects the flight; you still know that you can buy one disc today and that same mold 6 months from now and there is a good chance they will fly very differently.

I actually just received some discs in the mail yesterday, two of the same mold and both in the same plastic with a 2g difference in weight. Holding them next to each other they look like very different discs and the plastic feels different. And I would bet they fly very different as well as one is quite flat and the other more domey.

Disc companies, as with all industries, operate with the parameters of free enterprise and capitalism. They will adjust their practices in accordance to the market and profits. You are not entitled to expect any company, let alone an entire industry, to adjust to fit your individual needs. Your option, within this economic system, is to spend your dollars as you see fit. If enough players also do so, it is likely that companies will change.

You have spent considerable time, on two threads, belaboring your dissatisfaction....yet, I am not willing to join your crusade. I think you are overstating the issue.

I might suggest you take your business to a brick and mortar disc golf store. You can then focus your keen eye and wallet on disc that meet your standards. Plus you keep your money in your own disc golf community. Win-win?

See, if you look for solutions, not problems, the world becomes a place of joy.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Worth re-posting this here, because the OP kinda spilled this into the Cost of Stamps thread.

We get it. You want more consistency within a mold, and you're fed up that manufacturers don't do anything about it.

You're beginning to sound a bit like OMD and his crusade for smaller baskets. Go ahead and vent. Spill your guts. Lemme know when a disc manufacturer actually listens to you.

I get your frustration. But with all due respect, your recent posts are basically repeating what you've already said, rather than furthering the conversation. So I'll say this again:

It's as simple as, "Is it cost effective to improve disc manufacturing/product consistency?"

Apparently, disc manufacturers have decided the answer is "Nope." Expecting companies to do things that reduce profits is ...

Well, good luck with that.

Free advice: if you hate inconsistency, stay away from Champ Grooves.

 

[Ahildy13]

So you think that because discs are so inconsistent from one to another; people need to practice more to learn their differences as opposed to just getting a consistent product? LOL I started playing three years ago; it didn't take me long to realize that it's very difficult to find any consistency in discs. Even if you have a very good understanding of how much the plastic type affects the flight; you still know that you can buy one disc today and that same mold 6 months from now and there is a good chance they will fly very differently.

I actually just received some discs in the mail yesterday, two of the same mold and both in the same plastic with a 2g difference in weight. Holding them next to each other they look like very different discs and the plastic feels different. And I would bet they fly very different as well as one is quite flat and the other more domey.

You're literally proving his point. "That same mold 6 months from now and there is a good chance it will fly very differently"
Every disc is unique. Learn the discs in your bag, learn the new ones you buy, learn them as they change. If a disc isn't working out for you, oh well, it was the price of a meal at a restaurant.

No matter how identical they come out of the machine, they are going to fly differently.

It's a $15 piece of plastic.

 

[notapro]

Shrug...I have never had a disc show up with production issues. And I have bought a lot of discs over the years.

I'm in this boat. I've bought hundreds of discs over the years, and I've seen like one with too much flash, and another with some sink marks on the inside rim.

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if quality has suffered this last year in particular, not only because of increased demand but also because of material shortages. Companies worldwide are hurting for raw material, so I bet the disc manufacturers have had to use alternative materials with minimal testing just to keep up with demand, usually at a higher cost no less:

https://www.industrialspec.com/abou...ages-rising-prices-delivery-delays-early-2021


I know a lot of people think the disc manufacturers should be keeping a close eye on tolerances and processes, but they really don't need to. Frisbees are not precision parts, they don't have to mate with anything else, cosmetically they don't have to be perfect, so why bother? To keep 0.01% of the customers happy? That's just silly from a business perspective. They don't want to make bad products, obviously, but they also don't want to make perfect products.

 

[Keith H]

I have to say, I agree with ru4por on this issue.

I've been playing for 30 years, casually at first, and more seriously in recent years.

I have purchased 100s of discs (may be 1000 or more).

Early on it was all brick and mortar. Now it's a solid mix of online and brick and mortar.

Outside of stamp variations, and variable PLH & dome, I have only had 1 time where I was dissatisfied with the quality of a disc purchase and that issue was addressed.

Disc golfers complain a bit (not just about the discs) but in general. However most experienced players like the small variations from disc to disc.

If you ask 10 Teebird fans about which Teebird is the best, you will get a wide variety of answers, different variations are liked by different players. They are all close enough to be Teebirds, but certain ones are perfect for me.

The variations also add to the thrill of the hunt when buying. There is something extra great about thumbing through a stack of discs and seeing that one that is perfect for you.

Additionally, while I have adequate disposable income to feed this hobby (or is it an addiction?), I don't like where disc prices are going. Trying to make perfect discs in every detail will only drive up cost to the end user (I do the accounting part for a living in a different industry). $25 is a high enough price. I have no interest in paying $50plus for a disc.

 

[crabapillar]

This is why the industry hasn't improved since it's birth; it's deemed acceptable in the disc golf community to get something close to what you paid for or maybe you'll get lucky and find a good one or one you like. There has been so much variance over the last couple decades that it's just accepted that what gets pumped out is entirely random. I see countless threads about people discussing the issue with parting lines over many many years and what has changed?

I think your statement that disc golfer's complain a lot is inaccurate; it should be that disc golfers are push overs and kind of lazy when it comes to pushing for improvements. And I'm actually a huge Teebird fan, by far my favorite disc and I don't think there is a perfect Teebird or even a perfect one for me. My only expectation when buying one is that I receive the weight, color, and plastic type that I ordered without any glaring flaws in the surface. Like I stated earlier in this post, I just bought 3 new ones, all have quite obvious issues in the plastic. Would that be acceptable to you? Good luck going to a physical store now thumbing through those boxes looking for that magical disc you seek when they were all sold online while you were putting gas in your car to get there.

It's clear that cost is your biggest concern and keeping that low outweighs receiving better products. Typically cost isn't affected that much if things are done correctly; less defects typically offset the cost associated with process improvement. Think about it; what other industry doesn't package its products? Disc golf manufacturer's just toss discs in a cardboard box and ship them off, the only time I've seen a disc packaged was when it went to a non disc golf retailer like Dick's. Disc golf seems to be the only industry that hasn't improved with the times; for goodness sake they're still stamping discs by hand. That's about as laughable as it gets; any decent manufacturing company would have automated that process decades ago. They've been stagnant likely since they started and it's all very evident now as they are making no progress toward catching up on supply. What else is in massive shortage still due to covid??? Even with the entire world racing out to buy toilet paper all at once, that industry was able to meet the demand sooner than later.

Look at Discmania now; Innova can't meet their demand so nothing available from their original line. Why? Because Innova hasn't grown or improved in any way; they've been content just getting by and producing a so so product for many years. Not only does this hurt them but it hurts the discmania's, infinite discs, and the millenium's that rely on them for their products. Not to mention the customer's that are switching to other brand's because they can no longer buy the discs they've grown to love.

After reading that lost post I feel like a lot of issues in the disc golf industry center around old vs new. Those that have been playing for a good amount of years that have figured out a way to work around all the issues, where as the people that are newer to the game are starting to realize just how goofy and behind it is in relation to how any other successful business is run today and are trying to drive change within it.

Look at all the online retailers today that have begun weighing, taking pictures, and describing the parting line on the discs they're selling. Why are they doing this? Because it's very clear that people today care what they're getting and also because it's very clear that the manufacturer's can't be trusted to do something as simple as weigh a disc accurately or produce 100 of a like mold that all fall within a small range of variation. We act like they're making discs by hand; one by one; and each one is special and unique. lmao Why even have flight numbers or weights if the train of thought is that you just need to find one that works for you or hopefully get lucky to find one you want. If that's the case we don't need those things; we can just say the disc goes left, right, or kind of straight and the rest is up to you to figure out.

 

[ru4por]

This is why the industry hasn't improved since it's birth; it's deemed acceptable in the disc golf community to get something close to what you paid for or maybe you'll get lucky and find a good one or one you like. There has been so much variance over the last couple decades that it's just accepted that what gets pumped out is entirely random. I see countless threads about people discussing the issue with parting lines over many many years and what has changed?

I think your statement that disc golfer's complain a lot is inaccurate; it should be that disc golfers are push overs and kind of lazy when it comes to pushing for improvements. And I'm actually a huge Teebird fan, by far my favorite disc and I don't think there is a perfect Teebird or even a perfect one for me. My only expectation when buying one is that I receive the weight, color, and plastic type that I ordered without any glaring flaws in the surface. Like I stated earlier in this post, I just bought 3 new ones, all have quite obvious issues in the plastic. Would that be acceptable to you? Good luck going to a physical store now thumbing through those boxes looking for that magical disc you seek when they were all sold online while you were putting gas in your car to get there.

It's clear that cost is your biggest concern and keeping that low outweighs receiving better products. Typically cost isn't affected that much if things are done correctly; less defects typically offset the cost associated with process improvement. Think about it; what other industry doesn't package its products? Disc golf manufacturer's just toss discs in a cardboard box and ship them off, the only time I've seen a disc packaged was when it went to a non disc golf retailer like Dick's. Disc golf seems to be the only industry that hasn't improved with the times; for goodness sake they're still stamping discs by hand. That's about as laughable as it gets; any decent manufacturing company would have automated that process decades ago. They've been stagnant likely since they started and it's all very evident now as they are making no progress toward catching up on supply. What else is in massive shortage still due to covid??? Even with the entire world racing out to buy toilet paper all at once, that industry was able to meet the demand sooner than later.

Look at Discmania now; Innova can't meet their demand so nothing available from their original line. Why? Because Innova hasn't grown or improved in any way; they've been content just getting by and producing a so so product for many years. Not only does this hurt them but it hurts the discmania's, infinite discs, and the millenium's that rely on them for their products. Not to mention the customer's that are switching to other brand's because they can no longer buy the discs they've grown to love.

After reading that lost post I feel like a lot of issues in the disc golf industry center around old vs new. Those that have been playing for a good amount of years that have figured out a way to work around all the issues, where as the people that are newer to the game are starting to realize just how goofy and behind it is in relation to how any other successful business is run today and are trying to drive change within it.

Look at all the online retailers today that have begun weighing, taking pictures, and describing the parting line on the discs they're selling. Why are they doing this? Because it's very clear that people today care what they're getting and also because it's very clear that the manufacturer's can't be trusted to do something as simple as weigh a disc accurately or produce 100 of a like mold that all fall within a small range of variation. We act like they're making discs by hand; one by one; and each one is special and unique. lmao Why even have flight numbers or weights if the train of thought is that you just need to find one that works for you or hopefully get lucky to find one you want. If that's the case we don't need those things; we can just say the disc goes left, right, or kind of straight and the rest is up to you to figure out.

This is a pile of supposition, innuendo and conjecture, to convince some that everyone feels like you do. I have found very little concerns with the quality of the products I buy from several disc manufacturers. I don't really hear a lot of complaints over the quality of discs. You can rest assured that the day I do, I will take up any issue directly with the company. I would not be likely to take my case to the interwebz and try to rally the troops.

You have been playing disc golf for 2.9 years, yet feel free to speak for the masses about a decades old industry?

I appreciate your passion, but I don't see your issue and you present no solutions.

 

[autocrosscrx]

What else is in massive shortage still due to covid???

Cars and anything that uses computer chips. I can't get the tires I want to buy. I've been waiting months for upgraded wheel studs for my car. I bought a lightweight battery for my car and waited 7 months to get terminal adapters. I had to change brands of deodorant and peanut butter. I can't buy my favorite soft drinks because of an aluminum shortage. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.