Mando or Mandos? How should it be played?

[BillFleming]

I have a "how should this be played" question.

Situation: It's casual play, so there's no TD, etc. to clarify the rule....so how should this be played by the rules?

I attached a photo of the tee sign and of the area in question.

The tee sign says "Mando through tree gap". And it shows the mando being the trees in front of the forward tee pad.

The photo of the area in question shows the old tee sign with an M and and arrow pointing right, along with the telephone pole on the right having an M and an arrow pointing left. In the photo, there is a green arrow pointing down...due to overgrowth, from the tee pad you can't see the mando arrow that is in the tree pointing down. The yellow circle is the mando as per the tee sign.

The trees are about 35 feet in front of the two 'mando' signs at the forward tee pad.

Now the question....by the rules, how do you play this mando area?

1. as a triple mando, using the tee sign's directions and ignoring the mando signs. So the yellow circle in the photo is the only mando.

2. as two separate mandos, a double mando defined by the old tee sign and the telephone pole, and a single horizontal mando defined by the downward pointing arrow in the tree (marked by the green arrow). This ignores the tee sign.

3. as two separate mandos, the double mando marked by the old tee sign and the telephone pole AND a triple mando marked by the tree gap (per the tee sign).

The main reason this is important is the blue arrow in the photo.....if the tee sign is 'overridden' by the actual mando signs, then the blue line is a legal throw, even though it goes left of the tree on the left of the gap....it goes between the double mando and below the single mando. And it is the same if you go to the right, there's a good size gap left of the telephone pole 'mando' where you can go under the tree on the right of the gap and still be below the downward pointing mando arrow. Another possibility is going 'outside' one of the marked mandos (old tee sign or the telephone pole) and landing short of the tree gap...if the tee sign is the only 'authority', then the signs don't matter and going outside of the area they mark would still be legal as long as you don't miss the tree gap.

So, how should it be played?

 

[DavidSauls]

My recommendation is, just decide how you're going to apply the rule before throwing.

 

[_MTL_]

This is one of the main reasons a restricted plane is required to be marked for tournament play and the rule changed a few years ago; "mando left of tree" left dozens of questions such as this above and others like "does that mean I have to go left of every branch of the tree?"

 

[Shallows]

The signage both on the sign and the course itself seem to express a contradiction in rules requiring interpretation.

I would interpret in favor of the most straightforward and beautiful option which is #1.

 

[Shallows]

The signage both on the sign and the course itself seem to express a contradiction in rules requiring interpretation.

I would interpret in favor of the most straightforward and beautiful option which is #1.

#3 is the most technically correct I think.

In reality I bet people at a certain point decided to play with a different mando from the longs and ignore the tree gap.

 

[chevis]

ideally it would be #1, but without the mandos marked on the tree, i would allow for the low outside gaps to be legal.
hopefully this particular hole would be specified/clarified before playing.

 

[DavidSauls]

Frankly, from the photo, the outside routes don't seem very appealing. I'm not sure why there are mandos at all.

Unless there was an idea to make the "tree gap" archway a mando to avoid shots going over the top.

 

[dmoore1998]

I think you can rule out a triple mando. Yes there's a sign in the tree...that isn't visible. It's not on the tee sign...so how would anyone ever really know it exists?

Personally I play it as a mando based on the tee sign. When in doubt...I'm defaulting to the sign as the rule over a spraypainted marking on a pole or something (because i have no idea who put it there, whether it is old, etc). My guess would be that prior to a sign that said the mando...they used the pole and post as the mando for the long pad because it was easier to go out or over from the long pad than the pad closer to the gap?

 

[BillFleming]

I'll respond to posts when I can....but right now I'm getting blocked.

 

[BillFleming]

Well, for some reason DGCR doesn't want me to post my reply...it keeps getting blocked. I've sent a message to the site owners and will just wait to see what happens.

 

[DavidSauls]

Try doing it without quoting anyone. I just had the same problem when I did a quote and response, but when I responded with the same exact words without the quote, it went through. I've seen something like that happen here, before.

 

[sisyphus]

Casual round, first time I might play there, I see a double mando indicated on the tee sign and then two clearly marked mando signs visible from the tee, those are the only two I would assume existed. Any shot that passed between the two clearly marked mando poles would be OK in my book.

If a tournament director declared more detailed course particulars for an event, those would override.

 

[BillFleming]

I've tried without the quotes, I've tried just parts of my response, I tried changing some of the punctuation. Nothing worked.

 

[BillFleming]

Casual round, first time I might play there, I see a double mando indicated on the tee sign and then two clearly marked mando signs visible from the tee, those are the only two I would assume existed. Any shot that passed between the two clearly marked mando poles would be OK in my book.

If a tournament director declared more detailed course particulars for an event, those would override.

The thing is, the mando markings on the tee sign show the trees in front of the forward tee pad being the mando. So that puts the mando in front of the marked sign/pole.

 

[BillFleming]

Trying this again....this is the response I tried posting yesterday...

I think you can rule out a triple mando. Yes there's a sign in the tree...that isn't visible. It's not on the tee sign...so how would anyone ever really know it exists?

The sign in the tree is usually visible....we've just had some serious growth and trimming seems to be on the schedule....just hasn't happened yet.

Personally I play it as a mando based on the tee sign. When in doubt...I'm defaulting to the sign as the rule over a spraypainted marking on a pole or something (because i have no idea who put it there, whether it is old, etc). My guess would be that prior to a sign that said the mando...they used the pole and post as the mando for the long pad because it was easier to go out or over from the long pad than the pad closer to the gap?

I do know the course designer; the painted M's with arrows were put up the same time as the tee sign. The INTENTION was that it would just be the tunnel that would be the mando, but there was difficulty on how to put signs on the trees. But while I know the intention, not everyone playing it does....and when it comes down to it....intention isn't in the rules. I've had this mando discussion about every time I play with other folks and it isn't a tournament or league. (The reason the course designer didn't know how to mark the trees was that, at the time, the city wouldn't let him attach signs to the trees and the trunks were too small for painted M's and arrows to show up). Now that signs are allowed to be attached to trees, we might actually see this resolved....but I don't know when that will happen...so the issue still exists.

The purpose is to channel throws away from other fairways/tee pads. To the right is 13's tee pad. To the left is, I believe, 15 and 16s fairways.

The short pad is no longer in use as a tee pad....it's now the drop zone for missing the mandos.

 

[HyooMac]

The INTENTION was that it would just be the tunnel that would be the mando, but there was difficulty on how to put signs on the trees. But while I know the intention, not everyone playing it does....and when it comes down to it....intention isn't in the rules. I've had this mando discussion about every time I play with other folks and it isn't a tournament or league. (The reason the course designer didn't know how to mark the trees was that, at the time, the city wouldn't let him attach signs to the trees and the trunks were too small for painted M's and arrows to show up). Now that signs are allowed to be attached to trees, we might actually see this resolved....but I don't know when that will happen...so the issue still exists.

The purpose is to channel throws away from other fairways/tee pads. To the right is 13's tee pad. To the left is, I believe, 15 and 16s fairways.

The short pad is no longer in use as a tee pad....it's now the drop zone for missing the mandos.

While waiting for the signs to be placed in or near the trees, would the most obvious solution to be painting over or removing the painted M's? If the existing tee sign is also present on the back tee (with the short tee marked as "DZ", the only remaining argument would be whether the trees are a double or triple mando (if the sign in the tree isn't visible).

 

[BillFleming]

While waiting for the signs to be placed in or near the trees, would the most obvious solution to be painting over or removing the painted M's? If the existing tee sign is also present on the back tee (with the short tee marked as "DZ", the only remaining argument would be whether the trees are a double or triple mando (if the sign in the tree isn't visible).

That would be a solution, BUT....it can only be done by the course designer or the city...not by individuals.

The 'active' tee sign is only on the back tee. The hole information was removed from the forward tee sign and the only thing on that sign is the painted M and arrow.

There are solutions to 'fixing' the issue. But that isn't the question, it's how do you play it as it currently exists if you want to play by the rules? Personally, I play it as two separate sets of mandos (a double mando based on the painted sign and pole and a triple mando as per the active tee sign). I'm trying to find out if there is anything in the rules for cases where a tee sign conflicts with the actual markings on the hole and there's no official to make a ruling.

 

[Shallows]

Gateway West in Fort Worth has a hole where some ne-er-do-wells painted a fake mando on a second hanging limb that indicates you need to go under the first limb (the correct mando) and then over the second limb (which is insanely hard). You can kind of make it out on this photo.

 

[BillFleming]

Does the tee sign say anything about the mando(s)? Or is it just the painted arrows and you have to guess if they are real (intended) or not?

 

[Shallows]

Does the tee sign say anything about the mando(s)? Or is it just the painted arrows and you have to guess if they are real (intended) or not?

There's no tee signs at the course, so new players often try to play some sort of air bounce to go under and then over.

At tourney's TDs sometimes put up a little post indicating the mando.