Discing down adventures.

[craftsman]

Slowroll, I don't think you get it.
It's not boss vs. midrange ( unless they go the same distance for you), it's more like avenger and/or cyclone vs. boss. If your not pushin the boss over 4,450- chances are you would have an easir time getting a slower driver up to speed and thus getting it further with added accuracy.

I suggest measuring the distances of all the discs in your bag, if there's not a big difference between the catagories, then the slower will provide a more consistant, dependable line and distance- which is helpfull during competitive play.

I never change my bag- if I can't score well with a cyclone and avenger, it's me- not the discs

 

[craftsman]

I've been trying to work on my midrange discs and disc down. I've thrown in a field a little I can throw a Roc/Buzz 300 to 350 but when I'm on the course I still struggle with them. I guess I need more field practice.

I think that's normal. I do well with my mids at the field but fail with drivers. I too scared to give em height to really fly. I think the important part is realizing the height needed to get the mids out there, along with focusing on form ofcourse

 

[Mike C]

What craftsman said is right.

I often advocate, especially for players still working on their distance, to practice with mids and putters.

But one example that's less extreme is from about fall 09 to a month and a half ago, I used the Teebird as my distance driver, and fastest disc for that matter unless I had a Roadrunner with me. It was less about practicing with something slower to work on form as it was I could usually get the Teebirds out as far as a Surge, Destroyer, Roadrunner, Firebird, Boss, Katana etc., sometimes a bit further, but never more than 10 feet behind the faster discs. So a potential gain of 10 feet vs. a loss of control and a less familiar mold...the answer was pretty clear to me.

Some days I still feel like going back to the TB for distance...I can get my Destroyers out past them consistently now but I feel much more in control of the TB.

 

[ArcheType]

Here's a question to the more knowledgeable people in this thread (garubladder I mean you)

If you were to build your ultimate disc'd down bag for a novice player, what would it contain?

 

[craftsman]

I had read how far people talked about throwing, weather it was putters, mids, or drivers but never really believed it- or more like disreguarded it. That was until I got to play with better players. It was wierd at first to see my league partner throwing a ringer for all mid shots, or after I watched a pro shred a course with only a cyclone- this is when it really set in, he plays pro and claimed within five strokes of his average at any local course with only a cyclone, or when a top leaguer threw a buzzz ss over a big a$$ tree to take the anny route.....

My point is that sometimes seeing is believing and that nothing compares to actually seeing how top players select thier discs and lines.

One of the best pieces of advice I've recieved: You won't be able to throw 400 ten feet off the ground, well, atleast not until you can already throw 400.

 

[Mike C]

One of the best pieces of advice I've recieved: You won't be able to throw 400 ten feet off the ground, well, atleast not until you can already throw 400.

Wise words. I used to try and crank overstable driver flat, straight and hard about ten feet off the ground, then watch them fade hard and crash around 350-370 feet. My first 400' throws I think were 30 feet off the ground with a Teebird.

 

[slowRoll]

Slowroll, I don't think you get it.
It's not boss vs. midrange ( unless they go the same distance for you), it's more like avenger and/or cyclone vs. boss. If your not pushin the boss over 4,450- chances are you would have an easir time getting a slower driver up to speed and thus getting it further with added accuracy.

I get it just fine craftsman, perhaps you should re-read my posts to understand what I was asking. My questions had to do with if these guys that are throwing all their fast discs out of their bag were going to continue with this experiment in tournaments; tournaments that they had thrown their hard earned cash down to play in. No one has answered this question; instead I log on this morning to find you replying to me as if I haven't read this thread in its entirety. Perhaps the people that choose to take part in an experiment like this are not tournament players. That may be the case.

While you say that we should drop down to a speed 10 Avenger (I own and throw 2 myself), not everyone is saying as such:

Kirvin at post 45 "you should lose all the drivers and go with only midranges and putters for a while. Nothing will teach you the game like those discs will. When you learn to throw the mids consistantly far, it's time to start adding the faster discs to your bag. If you get you mids up to about 320' your drivers will start going even farther, perhaps 400' or more."

Sloppydisc recommends we remove all discs over speed 7(sorry no Avenger for you)

2 posts later at post 73 garublador recommends speed 6 or slower(goodbye Teebirds)

We've got Animage at post 103 with a 4 disc bag topping out at an Eagle.

I understand the concept, please don't insult my intelligence. But not everyone seems to share your ideas on this. I'll ask my question one final time, and maybe it will be answered this time.

Do any of you experimenting with this idea "disc down" in tournaments you paid good money to enter? Additionally, how has that worked out for you?

 

[garublador]

Here's a question to the more knowledgeable people in this thread (garubladder I mean you)

If you were to build your ultimate disc'd down bag for a novice player, what would it contain?

It depends a bit on the player. For someone brand new to disc golf who's planning on working to throw well I'd start with:

Wizard
Roc (or Shark if they'd rather start with something more neutral)
Polaris LS or Cheetah

For the Wizard, Roc and Shark, there are plenty of other similar discs that will work, too. For the driver there might be a couple others that will work, but I don't see a reason to use anything other than those two unless they get it really quick. This will get them up to throwing the drivers 320'-330' or so.

 

[Technohic]

I

Do any of you experimenting with this idea "disc down" in tournaments you paid good money to enter? Additionally, how has that worked out for you?

To get to the point, I dont play tournaments but I wouldnt do it IN the Tournament. I would probably do it in practice leading up to the tournament.

It is for practice and form development. If I would play in a tournament, I'm going to throw my best shot and not give a damn if it is comming from bad form, but chances are if you do this in your practicing rounds, you probably will be doing alright anyway.

 

[cfair]

SlowRoll and everyone else

I think the idea of discing down is for a player to learn good form and also to begin to learn just how far they can throw slower discs. I believe it would be for the purposes of outside tournament play because it is for learning purposes. The thought then being when you enter a tournament you're probably going to using drivers again for certain shot but will feel much more comfortable using slower discs on certain holes and for certain shots and letting the distance drivers go farther due to better form (hopefully).

As far as tourny players go I know with Innova's star team all the players have pretty limited strict lower speed discs and use those as often as possible. usually carrying different distance driver molds for drives only and to have more drive options open.

So are you going to do a tourny not using a traditional distance driver probably not. Once you get comfortable using lower speed discs are you going to use them more often, probably.

I myself have started throwing my TL as far as I was throwing my wraith, 290-310, and the few times I've used the wraith since I know its going much farther than before. But I'm falin in love with the TL.

 

[Technohic]

I myself have started throwing my TL as far as I was throwing my wraith, 290-310, and the few times I've used the wraith since I know its going much farther than before. But I'm falin in love with the TL.

This part is important and gets overlooked a lot. I find myself getting frustrated that I dont break the 300' barrier consistantly but; if I look back to a year ago when I came back to playing again after 2 or 3 years off and being very casual even before that point to now, I am throwing my putters beyond what my drivers were going that first time back so I dont know why I let it frustrate me seeing that I have made so much progress.

 

[Elderberen]

Slowroller

i play in leagues on Thursdays witch i pay to play and i will be using my disc down bag.
drivers tee bird, xl , stalker, guzzle ,express
mides star cro, 3 buzz, star sketer, drone.
putters 2 ion , and a zone.
the idea is to get better at control and clean up your form.

 

[garublador]

Do any of you experimenting with this idea "disc down" in tournaments you paid good money to enter? Additionally, how has that worked out for you?

I don't play in tournaments, period.

Again, the point of the exercise isn't to do well in tournaments right away, so you're asking a question that's sort of outside the scope of the thread. It's like asking someone who's learning to throw with their off hand why they'd do that in a tournament. If they're still learning to do it there's no real logical reason to put down your money unless you find it fun or just want to see how well you do. There's little chance you're doing it expecting to compete.

If you're in a lower division, you'll probably have an advantage once you get the slower discs to fly well. You'll play more conservatively and minimize bad shots.

If you're in an upper division, there's a really good chance you're doing this to make long term improvements and you won't expect to do as well right away, so you won't expect to really compete if you do play. Playing will just be a way to guage how well it's going.

I think one of the reasons you aren't getting the answers you want is all of this "knife to a gunfight" talk. You're suggesting that limiting yourself to slower drivers is an actual limitation to your game. For anyone who will benefit from this drill you're actually getting rid of limitations you've made for yourself by throwing those faster discs. It's more like being a martial arts master in a knife fight than it is bringing a knife to a gun fight.

 

[cfair]

It's more like being a martial arts master in a knife fight than it is bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Thank you! I've done martial arts for a long while and sometimes my friends say stupid stuff about being in a fight and using an object. Where I know most martial arts (traditional, modern, or hybrid) focus on preparing a person to fight AGAINST some one with a weapon because they create a false sense of security.

Just like the big drivers

They create this feeling of "look at what I did" instead of learning good technique. Which is why when so many people around my course start playing they immediately gravitate towards forehand and tomahawks because they get more distance at first than with their backhand. They create a safe feeling by doing okay for a little while instead of maybe not looking like you know what your doing by taking the time to learn good form.

False sense of security.

 

[craftsman]

Slowroll, I'm sorry if I insulted you.
My assumtion of your comprehension of discn down was due to your boss vs. mid comment and knife to gunfight answer.

To answer no, I wouldn't take out fast drivers when at a tourney. I will though use what I've learned from DD to make the best disc selection.

Your posts in this thread have a deffinate tone to them. It seems like DD upsets you in some way. It's simply a tool people are using to build thier game for the long run. DD to me is like the beato drill: in an hour when I'm on the tee for a 700+ shot am I gonna be doing a one step with no reachback- f no! But if I haven't learned to pull into the body, I'd be better off. Same as if you haven't learned to throw your mid.

 

[slowRoll]

If my tone is accusatory, it is because I believe that it seems foolish to not use the right tool for the job, and don't want anyone being led astray because so-and-so said all I need is a putter... I have no idea how we drifted into discussing the karate kid.

I play to improve because I like to win. I don't drink or toke or do any of the casual stuff so many others may do. I am a family man and a geek that enjoys the competitive aspect of this game because even an overweight mid 30's guy like myself can still play and be in the mix. I read all I can; I practice on my own and play fun bag-tag rounds with friends, but my end goal is to be better and to try to win.

If you believe that only using some of the tools that are available to you is the way to go playing against guys like me, then so be it. I believe that learning how to throw putters and midrange discs helps improve good form and will do nothing but help your overall game. After some consideration I have to disagree that we have to abandon all discs speed 7 and up to achieve this, and think that it would be nothing less than foolish to do so in a real competitive environment. If I am playing an open 800 foot par 4 hole and can throw a Boss 400 but can only throw a Teebird 360, it seems as if I am doing a disservice to myself to not try to be on the "green" in 2. That is the right tool for the job in this example for me. Persons that follow this line of thinking however will not have that option because that "tool"/disc, isn't even in their bag anymore.

As far as a technique to improve oneself in practice, I agree whole-heartedly with learning to throw under control, and maximizing distance with slower discs. Playing in our "TN tunnels" you learn very quickly the value of being 250 down the middle. I'm not looking to fight about this, I just think that this has been painted in a light that a new reader might blindly follow these suggestions without anyone else asking if this is the best thing to try and do in a competitive environment. Thanks for discussing this, I will trouble you on this no more.

 

[BrotherDave]

If I am playing an open 800 foot par 4 hole and can throw a Boss 400 but can only throw a Teebird 360, it seems as if I am doing a disservice to myself to not try to be on the "green" in 2. That is the right tool for the job in this example for me. Persons that follow this line of thinking however will not have that option because that "tool"/disc, isn't even in their bag anymore.

I'm sorry but I don't think you quite understand it. Using your example above, a Boss may be the right tool for you on that hole b/c you can throw it 400+ feet. 99% of novice players looking to improve can't throw a Boss 400'; it would be in no shape or form the right tool for anything for them.

If I'm playing your example, even in a tournament, I'm throwing an Eagle accurately on the fairway 330-350' a couple of times because to throw a Boss on this hole I'd have to impart some nasty OAT and flex it out there and there's no telling where it ends up. In tourneys, placement is everything.

It isn't bringing a knife to a gun fight, it's that using distance drivers, unless you have the power/technique/speed to throw them, is like using a tank to kill flies. It's overkill that impedes most peoples' progress.

 

[Technohic]

Maybe its best to be clear, here?

I look at discing down as throwing my mids and putters to improve, not to score.

Thats a bit different to me than me throwing nothing faster than a speed 7 which I do even when trying to score. That I do for using the tools that I am capable of using. If I throw a Boss, it isnt going any further than my XL with my arm and its only going to give me one line, where I can put the X XL on any line I want.

I call the first "discing down" and the second "playing within my ability"

 

[cfair]

The other reason discing down is important is because it teaches the right tools for the job instead of relying on your drivers. If your going to throw a Boss 400 and a Teebird, lets say, 360 on a 700 foot hole you still have an upshot to make anyway and you can throw the teebird twice to park right next to the basket a lot better than the boss because the boss hooks a lot more and is more likely to go off fairway. Then you have to figure out which second disc your going to use for that upshot instead of marking your lie, grabbing the teebird and tossing it again.

It teaches good form, line selection, disc selection, disc familiarity, and good disc golf. good players are often good because they used the slower stuff first and many, like Climo, had to because back in the day a stingray was a distance driver and they had to throw it 300 feet.

(I wonder if they had arguements like this back in the day with stuff like the stingray and regular frisbees)

 

[garublador]

If my tone is accusatory, it is because I believe that it seems foolish to not use the right tool for the job, and don't want anyone being led astray because so-and-so said all I need is a putter... I have no idea how we drifted into discussing the karate kid.

That's what I thought. You're building a straw man argument against discing down. You're suggesting that because there a situation exists where is isn't a good idea it shouldn't be followed. We're explicitly telling you that the situation you created is not one that a person going through this exercise will expect to see. If you're discing down for a while, you won't be trying to compete like that. If you don't like the "Karate Kid" discussion you shouldn't have started the fighting analogy.

I play to improve because I like to win. I don't drink or toke or do any of the casual stuff so many others may do. I am a family man and a geek that enjoys the competitive aspect of this game because even an overweight mid 30's guy like myself can still play and be in the mix. I read all I can; I practice on my own and play fun bag-tag rounds with friends, but my end goal is to be better and to try to win.

Again, discing down won't immediately save stokes. It has the potential to help you develop skills to save strokes in the long run. Players who have good skills already obviously won't see the benefit, but most new players or any player who hasn't developed those skills will. If you want to win your division tomorrow it's not a great time to start. If you want to compete in the next division up next year it's worth considering.

If I am playing an open 800 foot par 4 hole and can throw a Boss 400 but can only throw a Teebird 360, it seems as if I am doing a disservice to myself to not try to be on the "green" in 2. That is the right tool for the job in this example for me. Persons that follow this line of thinking however will not have that option because that "tool"/disc, isn't even in their bag anymore.

That's only true if you have equal control of those discs. If you have the same consistancy with a Boss at 400' as you do a Teebird at 360' and aren't concerned with learning to throw farther, discing down won't do much for you.

As far as a technique to improve oneself in practice, I agree whole-heartedly with learning to throw under control, and maximizing distance with slower discs.

Then what are you trying to say? Isn't it obvious that trying to both change your form and compete are nearly impossible to do at the same time? That's pretty universal across all sports.