USDGC 2023 - 25th edition

[biscoe]

My experience from disc golf (have been playing watching for 3 years now) is that disc golfers have much more "relaxed" attitude about rules and very seldom make uncomfortable calls and seldom any calls at all, even if the infractions are crystal clear. This means that compared to golf it's much more dependent on which players you have on your card if you get called for an infraction than if you actually break a rule.

I believe that if you changed the rules for the DGPT/Majors to make it possible to apply penalties on a later hole or even after the round (if between rounds) based on video evidence, the players would suddenly have to play according to ALL rules. Maybe some rules have to be changed a bit for this to be realistic. For example, if they would video check all step and jump putts on video for a round and hand out penalties for people putting down the front foot on step puts or having both feet off the ground during jump putts before they release the disc, we would have a huge amount of retroactive penalties.

My experience from 25+ years of playing and running dg events is that the professional players now are less likely than those 25 years ago to call an infraction (which is not to say that a lot of stuff got called 25 years ago).

I do not support retroactive video officiating on things that went unquestioned at the time of occurrence. Realistically we are a long ways from having the manpower/technology at events for that to be effective even if you desired it- same goes for having officials with every card.

Cultural change seems darn near impossible but is really the one option we have at this time or in the near future. That one is on the players for the most part.

 

[TheOtherBill]

These calls/no calls/bad calls are in every single sport - hell no that wasn't pass interference!
IMO it all evens out - except maybe the Vikings. KT has surely gotten some similarly lucky breaks over her career.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Questionable calls are great, because the ensuing conversation accomplishes two things:

1) Gets us to discuss and familiarize ourselves with the rules of the sport.

2) Gives us something to talk about after the event results and payouts have been finalized.

 

[Nale72]

I do not support retroactive video officiating on things that went unquestioned at the time of occurrence. Realistically we are a long ways from having the manpower/technology at events for that to be effective even if you desired it- same goes for having officials with every card.

It's only very few golf tournaments who has rules officials on every card. On the National Pro Tour level events and European tour qualifiers I've been an official on in Sweden, we have been 2-3 rules officials in total per event. We mostly roam around and we get most rulings/questions when we get waved over if we are nearby and someone is 1% unsure (but don't wanna risk getting an unnecessary penalty). A few times a day (sometimes none) players call for an official.

90-95% of our time on the course we try to keep the pace of play reasonable.

But even though we officials seldom hand out penalties, a lot of penalties are given during golf tournaments. Most of the time by the player self and a few times after another player draws attention to an infraction. Or that the players decide to just make a note on the course and take it with the officials after the round before returning the score card.

Even on the tour level most players aren't filmed all that much or at all. But the possibility it can happen and probably a different "culture" makes it work pretty well in golf. Of course there are exceptions in golf and even pro golf. But my experience is that golfers at every level are much more prone to follow rules and call rules infractions on themselves (or others) in golf than disc golf.

 

[coupe]

Even on the tour level most players aren't filmed all that much or at all. But the possibility it can happen and probably a different "culture" makes it work pretty well in golf. Of course there are exceptions in golf and even pro golf. But my experience is that golfers at every level are much more prone to follow rules and call rules infractions on themselves (or others) in golf than disc golf.

The biggest factor in the "different culture" is that pro bolfers have a LOT more to lose financially if they get caught breaking rules than do even the top DG pros.

Unless and until sponsors start suspending players and/or dropping repeat offenders for failing to call clear rules infrations, the "I'm not gonna call a rules violation because I don't wanna harsh my buzz" culture on the "pro" tour ain't gonna change.

 

[dndelli]

I believe that if you changed the rules for the DGPT/Majors to make it possible to apply penalties on a later hole or even after the round (if between rounds) based on video evidence, the players would suddenly have to play according to ALL rules. Maybe some rules have to be changed a bit for this to be realistic. For example, if they would video check all step and jump putts on video for a round and hand out penalties for people putting down the front foot on step puts or having both feet off the ground during jump putts before they release the disc, we would have a huge amount of retroactive penalties.

The reason video evidence isn't considered realistic for the disc golf, is that not every card will have video footage. And video evidence is not always clear on what has happened, depending on the angle. We've seen that happen plenty of times in other sports where fans are outraged over a call, only to see the play from a different angle and realize the official was correct.

The issue has everything to do with the amount of retaliation that likely occurs in the sport, where a Player A starts calling Player B on ticky-tacky calls for the rest of the round (possibly longer) because Player B had the "audacity" to call them out on their rules infraction.

I do think something will inevitably need to be done to improve this situation, but unfortunately the sport is still in such a juvenile state that there likely isn't a clear and feasible solution at this time. Outside of more players growing up and owning up to their mistakes instead of being petty when called out. Or just calling them out themselves. Like how Henna called out her own misplay when none of her card mates would have likely noticed it from where she was in the third round of the USWDGC. It will be hard for me to not cheer for her from now on after seeing that.

 

[Naenae]

I'm sure I'm probably the junior participant in this sub-thread, and I posed the question honestly, not knowing if there were a rule that would apply ex post facto. It sounds like there isn't, and if that's the system, long may it function.

I also was struck by the Arjuna--excuse me, Ranolf Junuh—like honesty of Henna last week.* If positive example were sufficient, she would be that sort of example.

I'm quite open to being called an idiot on this, but I think it's asking a lot of "the culture" to keep players playing by the rules, particularly in a league that hasn't yet celebrated its 10th anniversary.

I'm wide open to the idea that Holyn made an honest mistake, having genuinely perceived that she crossed in. From what I've seen of her on and off the course, she seems the sort to do the right thing. And, of course, we don't know if there was a re-teeing discussion before the card walked forward. If there was…end of story as far as I am concerned.

On the other hand, I've been around just long enough to have become familiar with certain professionals who don't exactly have the reputation for upholding the value of rules before self. I think that that the ethic of self-policing might well be helped, rather than negated, by an occasional sanction after the fact. Sort of like, "Well, we're basically just trusting you to be completely honest (or else)."



* yes, TLOBV is indeed the Gita, retold.

 

[foxdawg10]

I am re-watching the end of FPO. Tattar's drive hit the base of the tree to the right of the basket, rolled toward the basket, and then turned 180 degrees, rolling about 20 feet away from the basket. She then airballs the putt, before putting her drive in the water on hole 17.

 

[glassila]

The reason video evidence isn't considered realistic for the disc golf, is that not every card will have video footage. And video evidence is not always clear on what has happened, depending on the angle. We've seen that happen plenty of times in other sports where fans are outraged over a call, only to see the play from a different angle and realize the official was correct.

No, not every card will have video coverage, but when tournament officials see a clear rules violation on video even if it's an hour later shouldn't the rule be enforced? (I am not saying it should, I am asking if it should)

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Hot Take?


Not sure I see the money to have paid, qualified officials on all 18 holes of DGPT events.
Further, not absolutely convinced it really would have made a difference here disc, because in REAL TIME, I'm not sure anyone was really sure if the disc never made it IB.

Everyone's convinced only after we've watched it at least another time or two.

 

[Steve West]

[...]

The issue has everything to do with the amount of retaliation that likely occurs in the sport, where a Player A starts calling Player B on ticky-tacky calls for the rest of the round [...]

What are these ticky-tacky calls you speak of? It's really easy to comply with all the rules. Why would anyone think there is a large set of uncalled violations to draw on?

 

[Naenae]

Show of hands…if Holyn had thrown a provisional, even if she then went on to play her first drive, would this discussion have the same salience?

As for that, this sort of discussion is just what sports-based bulletin boards do to pass the time between tournaments. I don't personally think that disc golf is at some sort of a crisis point. I just think that demonstration of concern that the rules be followed even when inconvenient would go a long ways towards showing that things like video review and paid monitors aren't really necessary. Five bucks says Holyn learns from this, and meanwhile a lot of us do too. Win.

 

[foxdawg10]

Stick around. This is exactly what DGCR does. I'm guessing 95 % of the posters didn't even watch the tournament and are just taking part in a conversation with wild speculation and a shit ton of tangents that don't relate to the actual event they are commenting on. Lot of armchair quarterbacking and second guessing.

Hats off to Holyn. She threw a killer round!

No one will learn anything and nothing will change. Except maybe...

I'm guessing next year, they either move the OB line closer to the tree line, or trim the branches on the corner so that it is more obvious where the disc crosses. Changing the course is much easier than changing the players.

My opinion is it is a bad place for OB anyway. It isn't clear from the tee, and not clear if the disc passes over the corner. The optics are very bad. It should be as plain as day, and that spot isn't clear for anyone to see. We needed a camera from 320 feet away with a blurry zoom to see.

If you land there or in the trees, it acts as a natural OB. One thing I dislike about ropes courses are the fake forced OB's, and I am not a fan of the fairway bunkers either. Either you are OB or you are not. It is way too arbitrary in some cases.

 

[txmxer]

Stick around. This is exactly what DGCR does. I'm guessing 95 % of the posters didn't even watch the tournament and are just taking part in a conversation with wild speculation and a shit ton of tangents that don't relate to the actual event they are commenting on. Lot of armchair quarterbacking and second guessing.

Hats off to Holyn. She threw a killer round!

No one will learn anything and nothing will change. Except maybe...

I'm guessing next year, they either move the OB line closer to the tree line, or trim the branches on the corner so that it is more obvious where the disc crosses. Changing the course is much easier than changing the players.

My opinion is it is a bad place for OB anyway. If you land there or in the trees, it acts as a natural OB. One thing I dislike about ropes courses are the fake forced OB's, and I am not a fan of the fairway bunkers either. Either you are OB or you are not. It is way too arbitrary in some cases.

Admittedly I only watched highlights, but I think you are right that OB could be adjusted.

 

[foxdawg10]

Admittedly I only watched highlights, but I think you are right that OB could be adjusted.

Sometimes my contrarian-ness is useful, lol.

 

[Nale72]

I'm guessing next year, they either move the OB line closer to the tree line, or trim the branches on the corner so that it is more obvious where the disc crosses. Changing the course is much easier than changing the players.

My opinion is it is a bad place for OB anyway. It isn't clear from the tee, and not clear if the disc passes over the corner. The optics are very bad. It should be as plain as day, and that spot isn't clear for anyone to see. We needed a camera from 320 feet away with a blurry zoom to see.

If you land there or in the trees, it acts as a natural OB. One thing I dislike about ropes courses are the fake forced OB's, and I am not a fan of the fairway bunkers either. Either you are OB or you are not. It is way too arbitrary in some cases.

Or you could make it stroke and distance or have a mandatory drop zone for the tee shot (or make the part hazard). That way you don't have to change anything and can keep the exact layout. But it would still be 100% clear (well, sorta) what to do and you won't have this situation happen again (there). They do both mandatory drop zone and stroke and distance on different parts of the same hole on the layout already so why not here when it factually is an issue.

 

[Nale72]

I don't know what Nate said/wrote that got his reaction?

 

[Nale72]

Nobody (?) has said it wasn't verbal confirmation from the card about the spot. The question about that was if there was a serious discussion right after her first throw about if the disc ever crossed, before they walked up to the spot.And verbal confirmation of Holyn's "Here?" and a discussion is two different things in my mind. What this seems to "confirm" though is:

1. It doesn't seem as there were a serious discussion at the tee about throwing a provisional even though this was a crucial decision for the tournament and especially since:
2. The players agreeing/saying the disc did cross in-bounds there didn't actually see if he disc was in-bounds or not (or where) since we now got confirmation that it wasn't possible to see that from where the players sat.
3. The players on the card only confirmed Holyn's "Here?" (shown/heard on he broadcast when she to where she thought it crossed), that was it.
4. They never seem to have discussed the possibility to ask the spotter, who is actually there to spot and help out in situations like this if possible. Even though they themselves didn't see if the disc crossed or not (or where).
5. They never asked the spotter about his opinion.

I do agree that no rule was broken and that we can't for sure say someone willfully cheated/bent the spirit of the rules.

 

[Nale72]

 

[Sewer bill]

We can have corporate sponsors and deep pockets behind the scenes and massive payouts to the players but paying people to watch ob on each hole and calling it instead of players is just too much for professional level disc golf.

This sport is still ghetto and I like it.