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As I said a few hundred pages ago, the question should not be focused on whether par is doing its job. The issue has always been whether the design of a hole creates a scoring distribution where a good par can be assigned. Your data simply shows that some holes can't have a good par because...

Cabin Creek is only open on holidays, so unless you have some special connection that's likely out. Although there are a lot of courses in the immediate area, I would suggest: - Mt. Airy - Monroe (great short course) - Twin Creek Black (underrated) - Osage (Quite tough from the long tees)...

I'm sure there have been holes that have changed par, but I can't imagine doing so without a design change. I can see moving a tee up on a short par 4 and making it a par 3 - they wouldn't just change par and leave it as is. They do this at many US Open venues - they shorten a par 5 and make it...

Top level tournaments are more frequently being held on temp courses, which allows course design to be better aligned with an intended par. These layouts make changes much easier, and as such I wonder if/when we will start to see different tees/basket placements for different rounds (if we...

That's all well and good, but I think it's rare for the data to show that a hole that was assigned a par of four would play as a good par three. Let's start with "this hole played too easy/too hard", look at other numbers you may have, and go from there. Who says we are stuck with the hole as...

I thought our discussion was focused on pars for high level tournament play. I don't think anyone cares what pars you assign at the local pitch & putt.

I detect just a slight whiff of sarcasm, but I'll play along... Quite the contrary based on this year's data - 36% of the time there was something other than a par, and birdies outnumbered bogeys by a 2-1 margin. There was even an ace. I'd say it was an exciting, well designed hole. They...

Private courses will make changes mostly based upon the wishes of their boards. When I was 14 I worked for a greenskeeper who had to cut down a perfectly healthy tree because too many members were hitting it. Daily fee courses are in decline and are the least likely to make changes. The ones...

It's not about the scoring data - it's purely a distance thing. If a green can be reached by the average golfer in two shots it's a par four. You are absolutely correct that we can't use the same simple formula for disc golf, as there is a different set of variables that can impact the...

1) That depends on how the course is to be used. If the course being designed has hopes of being used for a tournament, the architect will leave plenty of room to include longer tees and will include design elements to provide the appropriate level of challenge for that use. This would include...

Pars haven't improved - hole design has improved. While this results in having more holes with assigned pars that are more in line with expectations, I think it is a reach to attribute this change to par-setting tools. Your method doesn't set pars - it evaluates them. Looking at average...

Ball golf has much higher score separation. Ball golf handicaps generally range from 0 to 36 (pros will have "plus" handicaps). If we use a rule of thumb that a throw in disc golf is worth 10 ratings points, and we think of a 1000-rated round being equivalent to an even-par round in ball golf...

Golf has handicapping to allow different skill levels to play against each other. If my handicap is 5 and yours is 15, then we could compete in stroke play (I'm giving you 5 a side or 10 for the match), or in match play (you would receive a stroke on the 10 hardest holes determined by the hole...

Innova course #3 is, for me, one of those holes where the current definition of par doesn't work so well. Hopefully we would agree that errorless play by an expert on this hole would result in a two the vast majority of the time. Don't get me wrong - as a renowned par-two-hater I applaud the...

Memories My son and I started playing together at Turtlecreek. I have played more rounds at that course than I have at any other and it holds lots of great memories. The 2009 Turtlecreek Open was my first PDGA tournament, my first PDGA win (albeit Rec), and I had my first ever ace -...

I don’t like your qualifier of “will relate to real outcomes”, as I find that to be an issue with Steve’s system as a method of determining par. If your mandate is that if, after a tournament we see that 75% of the 1000 rated players got a three on a hole, any acceptable method must make that...

Straw man. What does that have to do with anything? If a basketball hoop was 30 feet off the ground instead of 10 it would be harder to make baskets, but that is not relevant to the assertion being made either. I don't see anyone claiming that disc golf can't be made harder by doing the...

I don't think it is reasonable to single out one person who is not paying just because he is doing it more often than other people. If you have the ability to close the course by installing a locked gate at the entrance and include a "course closed today - no trespassing", then do it except on...

I get it - really I do. Whether we use the "errorless expert" standard or the "two throws from close range" standard it is a par three. I still prefer a system that has some additional flexibility wherein a poorly constructed hole that is heavily skewed towards the lowest possible score is...

Why do you insist on trying to explain the same thing over and over? I know Steve's analysis is based on a 1000 rated player, and I've not suggested using a different standard. But, when I or anyone else suggests looking at the picture differently, he consistently refers to those approaches as...