Par Talk

[Steve West]

Only if anyone looks deep enough into it. As it is Youtube is at 30k views in 3 days of that video with 305 likes vs 5 dislikes. Facebook live appears to be Jussi's main marketing medium so you can assume a similar number at least of views on that with smiilar positive response.

Might not be backed up by the numbers as a true Par 5 post event but from a marketing point of view calling it one apparently puts the wind fully in the sails.

True, but we can only declare a miracle a limited number of times before it loses its effectiveness. It reminds me of the Daily Show's segment:

Storm of the Century of the Week​

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Free birdies and eagles to all of MPO!

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Good hole design is still a judgment call, par is not.

Well, apparently it is or this thread would not exist! :doh:

It is interesting seeing those who attempt to preemptively define par, perhaps even back their definitions up with statistics and, then, satisfied that they have the only "correct" definition, claim or imply, nicely or not, that other understandings of par are simply incorrect.

Disc golf isn't real Golf. Not all real golfers agree what par is or should be. Real Golf ("rGolf" if you will) is far more difficult than disc golf. The sooner disc golf comes to the collective realization that the inevitable, relative ease-of-mastery has led to a much wider skill, and scoring, gap at tournaments, the sooner everyone can settle down about par and not mind that our easy pars cater to the relatively underskilled disc golf masses and don't actually affect the outcome of the tournaments, the sooner we can all be at ease with the better players being -30 after the first two rounds of a disc golf tournament.

Let's stop comparing ourselves to real Golfers and stop comparing disc golf to real Golf. There's real Golf par and there is disc golf par. As long as you don't expect those two things to match up to the scores in their respective tournaments the same way, there is no problem with disc golf par as it exists.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Well, apparently it is or this thread would not exist! :doh:

It is interesting seeing those who attempt to preemptively define par, perhaps even back their definitions up with statistics and, then, satisfied that they have the only "correct" definition, claim or imply, nicely or not, that other understandings of par are simply incorrect.

Disc golf isn't real Golf. Not all real golfers agree what par is or should be. Real Golf ("rGolf" if you will) is far more difficult than disc golf. The sooner disc golf comes to the collective realization that the inevitable, relative ease-of-mastery has led to a much wider skill, and scoring, gap at tournaments, the sooner everyone can settle down about par and not mind that our easy pars cater to the relatively underskilled disc golf masses and don't actually affect the outcome of the tournaments, the sooner we can all be at ease with the better players being -30 after the first two rounds of a disc golf tournament.

Let's stop comparing ourselves to real Golfers and stop comparing disc golf to real Golf. There's real Golf par and there is disc golf par. As long as you don't expect those two things to match up to the scores in their respective tournaments the same way, there is no problem with disc golf par as it exists.

As Steve has pointed out many times, par does have an "official" PDGA definition in disc golf so it is simply more deterministic than good hole/course design which is not yet clearly defined.

 

[Steve West]

Well, apparently it is or this thread would not exist! :doh:

It is interesting seeing those who attempt to preemptively define par, perhaps even back their definitions up with statistics and, then, satisfied that they have the only "correct" definition, claim or imply, nicely or not, that other understandings of par are simply incorrect.

Disc golf isn't real Golf. Not all real golfers agree what par is or should be. Real Golf ("rGolf" if you will) is far more difficult than disc golf. The sooner disc golf comes to the collective realization that the inevitable, relative ease-of-mastery has led to a much wider skill, and scoring, gap at tournaments, the sooner everyone can settle down about par and not mind that our easy pars cater to the relatively underskilled disc golf masses and don't actually affect the outcome of the tournaments, the sooner we can all be at ease with the better players being -30 after the first two rounds of a disc golf tournament.

Let's stop comparing ourselves to real Golfers and stop comparing disc golf to real Golf. There's real Golf par and there is disc golf par. As long as you don't expect those two things to match up to the scores in their respective tournaments the same way, there is no problem with disc golf par as it exists.

I agree that we don't need to make disc golf par be like real golf par. Disc golf par should be disc golf par. Our game is easier, pars should reflect that by being lower.

I don't accept that it is OK for disc golf par to be something different at every tournament and at every course.

There aren't really a lot of different "understandings" of disc golf par. Everyone who has thought it through and actually come to an understanding has arrived at very nearly the same level of par. And, that happens to be compatible with the actual, official, definition. Anyone who says par should be much higher is working from a lack of understanding.

 

[lyleoross]

Gainsay? No. We can laugh at his stupid ass, though.

Not in this case. He sets par better than almost anyone else. Having one or two holes that might possibly need tweaking is not a reason to disparage him.

I have to admit, TAFL's humor did me in, even if Jussi sets par better than most.

 

[lyleoross]

I agree that we don't need to make disc golf par be like real golf par. Disc golf par should be disc golf par. Our game is easier, pars should reflect that by being lower.

I don't accept that it is OK for disc golf par to be something different at every tournament and at every course.

There aren't really a lot of different "understandings" of disc golf par. Everyone who has thought it through and actually come to an understanding has arrived at very nearly the same level of par. And, that happens to be compatible with the actual, official, definition. Anyone who says par should be much higher is working from a lack of understanding.

Please don't write "our game is easier." It isn't. Yep, right now our courses play easier, but that's resources and time.

It's really important to recognize that ball golf balances course difficulty. They acknowledge that a certain level of difficulty sells the sport better. We can make disc golf as hard or easy as we want. We can build courses, change basket design, limit disc length and type to build the sport any way we want. Organically, it's happening anyway. Courses are growing and the sport is evolving. In ten years, 15 down in a round will only occur because a TD over pars. It won't be due to course design (in a major that is).

 

[lyleoross]

Well, apparently it is or this thread would not exist! :doh:

It is interesting seeing those who attempt to preemptively define par, perhaps even back their definitions up with statistics and, then, satisfied that they have the only "correct" definition, claim or imply, nicely or not, that other understandings of par are simply incorrect.

Disc golf isn't real Golf. Not all real golfers agree what par is or should be. Real Golf ("rGolf" if you will) is far more difficult than disc golf. The sooner disc golf comes to the collective realization that the inevitable, relative ease-of-mastery has led to a much wider skill, and scoring, gap at tournaments, the sooner everyone can settle down about par and not mind that our easy pars cater to the relatively underskilled disc golf masses and don't actually affect the outcome of the tournaments, the sooner we can all be at ease with the better players being -30 after the first two rounds of a disc golf tournament.

Let's stop comparing ourselves to real Golfers and stop comparing disc golf to real Golf. There's real Golf par and there is disc golf par. As long as you don't expect those two things to match up to the scores in their respective tournaments the same way, there is no problem with disc golf par as it exists.

Nice post. Rgolf isn't harder, it's designed to be as hard as it is. Dgolf is designed to be easier. Some of that is simply how the sport evolved.

Par has no set definition yes, but irrelevant. You can make a definition even if you choose not to.

 

[lyleoross]

Free birdies and eagles to all of MPO!

As my son would say, that's Amcist. Prejudice against amateur players. Free birdies and eagles for all players. I'll accept nothing less! Oh yeah, and I want a participation trophy too.

 

[The Shide]

What if, hear me out, we just did away with par and just totaled up all the throws. The person with the least amount of throws at the end of the event wins. Wait, I think we already do this, except we throw in this par thing that gets everybody wrapped around the axles and crying that we need to change par, we need to redefine par, it's the fault of course design, it's the fault of TDs.

Is it really a problem that our pros have lower scores than bolf pros? Is it? We have similarities, but we are not the same.

Is it really keeping Coca Cola or Chevrolet from stepping in and sponsoring? I mean, that is what it boils down to, right? Whether or not we have bigger, better cash flow in our sport from major corporations?

Something that fails to be mentioned, I think, is that those low, low scores are done by a finite number of Professional Disc Golfers, who are the best players in the world. Not everybody has the ability to eagle hole 11. I mean, Eagle didn't. JK Eagle.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Please don't write "our game is easier." It isn't. Yep, right now our courses play easier, but that's resources and time.

I think you are talking about something completely different. That, or you are delusional. Real Golf is far more difficult than disc golf. This has nothing to do with course design. The inherent difficulty of real Golf is in the difficulty of just hitting the ball. Just coordinating contact between the clubface and the ball is a barrier to entry that prevents many people from ever moving past the "I tried to hit a golf ball and couldn't stage." Anyone without a physical handicap that doesn't prevent them from throwing a disc can play disc golf.

Nice post. Rgolf isn't harder, it's designed to be as hard as it is. Dgolf is designed to be easier.

So real Golf isn't harder, it's just that disc golf is easier? I'm going to have to pick "delusional."

 

[NegaSnapples]

Yeah, as an avid golfer and avid disc golfer, golf is so much more challenging as a sport. Improving distance, accuracy, putting, etc. is all much more difficult with golf. Anyone who says otherwise is either delusional, or hasn't played both.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Disc golf can be more challenging per 100 feet of distance than ball golf. However, since ball golf is about 3 times longer and includes an additional projectile skill (putting), it wins the total challenge of the two.

 

[lyleoross]

I think you are talking about something completely different. That, or you are delusional. Real Golf is far more difficult than disc golf. This has nothing to do with course design. The inherent difficulty of real Golf is in the difficulty of just hitting the ball. Just coordinating contact between the clubface and the ball is a barrier to entry that prevents many people from ever moving past the "I tried to hit a golf ball and couldn't stage." Anyone without a physical handicap that doesn't prevent them from throwing a disc can play disc golf.



So real Golf isn't harder, it's just that disc golf is easier? I'm going to have to pick "delusional."

De, de, definitely delusional.

Let's play which is harder. Hitting a ball with a stick or throwing a disc down a six foot wide corridor for 200 feet. Hitting a ball with a stick or throwing a disc down a five foot wide corridor for 200 feet. Hitting a ball with a stick or throwing a disc down a four foot wide corridor for 200 feet.

I can go at this all day.

You can narrow the parameters on any sport to make it more or less difficult. The distance from the pitching mound to home plate and the height of the mound have been modified many times to find the optimal balance to create a battle between the hitter and the pitcher, as opposed to a hit or pitch fest.

Disc golf is now in this position. We can balance course and hole structure to raise or lower difficulty to the level we want. Is it practical to do that in a planned way right now? Nope. But it's happening anyway in tournaments all over, as TDs and designers modify and tweak their courses.

So yes, inherently, hitting a ball with a stick is harder than throwing a disc. And if that were the only parameter, the only measure of difficulty, you'd be correct. But it isn't. Rgolf doesn't say, "okay, if you hit that ball with the stick, you've scored. The player with the most hits wins." They add in all kinds of things, doglegs, putting greens - fast and sloped, distance etc. Those things are added to bring a different level of control to the hit ball with stick idea.

So, throwing that disc tis easy. Therefore, to add difficulty, we need to tweak other things. Can you balance those other things against stick contact with ball? Yep. Can you inherently make ball golf harder than disc golf if you toughen everything up? Yep. Stick on ball is harder. But they don't do that. They are balancing difficulty to make the sport interesting for players and fans. We don't need to make other non-throwing things so hard that only a Paul or Ricky can succeed either. But not acknowledging that the difficulty can be modified to any level we want is....

 

[lyleoross]

I want to add in one thing. Going out and playing on one of our current courses and saying it's easier than ball golf is a bad comparison. Our courses are easy. Even the tough ones. We only start coming close at USDGC where they've really cut down options, forced the players to make specific throws, and done so somewhat rigorously. You're essentially comparing what are pitch and putt courses with a rgolf major. That's not a good comparison.

If the reply is no one can ever make every throw down a long narrow corridor. I'm gonna disagree. Players do it, and frequently. Of course if your measure is perfection, well, you're right. But I'd like to discuss the meaning of delusional in that case. The first guy who played rgolf didn't go out and plow it three hundred yards, and chip it in with back spin onto a sloped green. Those skill sets in the sport as a whole grew over time. Even with a well-established sport like rgolf, Tiger was a revelation. He established new skill norms that required a rethink. Paul and Ricky are doing the same, IMO.

 

[NegaSnapples]

I don't think you understand what I mean. Remove everything else and leave the mechanics for both. Hitting a small ball with a long stick far, accurate, and on the line you want is much more difficult than throwing a disc. There really is no comparison. You can make either sport as "challenging" as you want. Those are just outside factors that have nothing to do with the mechanics of the shot.

 

[gdub58]

Let's play which is harder. Hitting a ball with a stick or throwing a disc down a six foot wide corridor for 200 feet. Hitting a ball with a stick or throwing a disc down a five foot wide corridor for 200 feet. Hitting a ball with a stick or throwing a disc down a four foot wide corridor for 200 feet.

I can go at this all day.

Straw man.

You can narrow the parameters on any sport to make it more or less difficult. The distance from the pitching mound to home plate and the height of the mound have been modified many times to find the optimal balance to create a battle between the hitter and the pitcher, as opposed to a hit or pitch fest.

What does that have to do with anything? If a basketball hoop was 30 feet off the ground instead of 10 it would be harder to make baskets, but that is not relevant to the assertion being made either.

So yes, inherently, hitting a ball with a stick is harder than throwing a disc. And if that were the only parameter, the only measure of difficulty, you'd be correct. But it isn't. Rgolf doesn't say, "okay, if you hit that ball with the stick, you've scored. The player with the most hits wins." They add in all kinds of things, doglegs, putting greens - fast and sloped, distance etc. Those things are added to bring a different level of control to the hit ball with stick idea.

So, throwing that disc is easy. Therefore, to add difficulty, we need to tweak other things. Can you balance those other things against stick contact with ball? Yep. Can you inherently make ball golf harder than disc golf if you toughen everything up? Yep. Stick on ball is harder. But they don't do that. They are balancing difficulty to make the sport interesting for players and fans. We don't need to make other non-throwing things so hard that only a Paul or Ricky can succeed either. But not acknowledging that the difficulty can be modified to any level we want is....

I don't see anyone claiming that disc golf can't be made harder by doing the things that are currently being done - adding length, hazards, and so forth. The assertion is that ball golf is inherently a more difficult game to master than disc golf. Do you disagree?

 

[roggenb3]

Do you disagree?

A more appropriate question may be:

Have you ever played golf?

Seems like most everyone who's played both agrees golf is the more difficult of the two (myself included).

 

[Steve West]

The point is......

No matter whether ball golf is harder than disc golf, or whether disc golf becomes harder in the future, the definition of par for disc golf is such that it will always produce pars that reflect the actual difficulty, because it is based on what an expert would expect.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

A more appropriate question may be:

Have you ever played golf?

Seems like most everyone who's played both agrees golf is the more difficult of the two (myself included).

Yeah, it becomes readily apparent that those that claim disc golf is more difficult have no experience with one of the sports and, therefore, don't know what they are talking about. But they also aren't concerned with the truth of what they are saying so much as the supposed effect of saying it. I had to laugh at "additional projectile skill" comment: it's stated as if there were no difference between hitting a golf ball of the tee, or off the ground or out of a bunker. There's just hitting a ball for distance and putting. :doh: