2016 Memorial Championship presented by Discraft

[TXdiscgolfer]

Agreed! I enjoy the humans...being human.

I agree.. Humans. I have been to many tournaments and they all flip out at one point. Maybe Johne wasn't too tactful, but he had a point. These are top tier pros. McBeth is the #1 player in the world. He HAS to play by the rules or the game is not to be taken seriously. If it is me and my friends out playing, sure.. a mulligan here and there etc.. But this is a high stakes, big money tournament. I understand he said he had to go to the bathroom... BUT... Philo should not have thrown. If Philo had not thrown, I doubt there would have been an issue, but he did... and the clock started.

Being an old school purist of the game, Johne put him on the clock. I'm more upset with McBeth for not calling himself on that to be honest. He has a responsibility as a leader of this sport. The more I think about it, the more I want to put an asterisk next to the win and in my mind, Sexton is the champ.

In the end, Johne could have been more tactful, but it was the right call for the sport. I respect the balls it took to call him out, sadly McBeth didn't have the balls to own up. (He did have an amazing pressure shot though). Just my $.02

 

[Chiefstang]

It's just a warning, btw. He was warned.

 

[TXdiscgolfer]

You are right, I stand corrected. I looked that up after I posted. Kinda a dumb rule.. A warning? I couldn't imagine a warning in ball golf. Anyways, I respect the cajones of McCray nonetheless. I met him once and he was super nice to me and my son. Chatted, signed an autograph, gave some tips to my son. Nice dude.

 

[JC17393]

I agree.. Humans. I have been to many tournaments and they all flip out at one point. Maybe Johne wasn't too tactful, but he had a point. These are top tier pros. McBeth is the #1 player in the world. He HAS to play by the rules or the game is not to be taken seriously. If it is me and my friends out playing, sure.. a mulligan here and there etc.. But this is a high stakes, big money tournament. I understand he said he had to go to the bathroom... BUT... Philo should not have thrown. If Philo had not thrown, I doubt there would have been an issue, but he did... and the clock started.

Being an old school purist of the game, Johne put him on the clock. I'm more upset with McBeth for not calling himself on that to be honest. He has a responsibility as a leader of this sport. The more I think about it, the more I want to put an asterisk next to the win and in my mind, Sexton is the champ.

In the end, Johne could have been more tactful, but it was the right call for the sport. I respect the balls it took to call him out, sadly McBeth didn't have the balls to own up. (He did have an amazing pressure shot though). Just my $.02

I can't say I 100% agree that JohnE made the right call. Technically, did McBeth take longer than 30 seconds based on when JohnE started counting. But it is definitely up to interpretation whether JohnE started counting at the appropriate time considering Paul hadn't arrived at the tee and his reason for not arriving with the rest of the group was more than reasonable (and the rule does include the word "reasonable" as a key descriptor of the time needed to arrive at the next lie/tee).

As has been pointed out myriad times on this thread already, there were ample opportunities to call excessive time on other players during the final round and earlier rounds as well. If there is such a concern on JohnE's part to adhere to the pace of play rules, he should have been calling and warning the others as well. He was grumbling about the rules not applying the same to all players, yet he was doing exactly that by singling out McBeth for excessive time but not counting out anyone else he played with during the week.

My biggest issue with the incident is that it was clear that his intent wasn't to call Paul on excessive time. It was to call him for being late to arrive and assess him a par+4 for the hole, and that rule/penalty simply doesn't apply to that situation. His intent was to screw Paul with an unwarranted penalty. And when he was corrected on what the proper rule and penalty was for what he was trying to call, he backed down instead of going with it and warning Paul as he would have been within his right to do.

If you're going to call a violation, call it. If you get it wrong because you don't know the correct rule to apply, own up to it and apply the correct rule if still applicable. But don't call a violation based on an incorrect rule and then cry injustice because you don't understand the rules and can't penalize your opponent the way you thought he should be.

 

[JC17393]

You are right, I stand corrected. I looked that up after I posted. Kinda a dumb rule.. A warning? I couldn't imagine a warning in ball golf. Anyways, I respect the cajones of McCray nonetheless. I met him once and he was super nice to me and my son. Chatted, signed an autograph, gave some tips to my son. Nice dude.

There is no shot clock in ball golf, only pace of play rules. If a player/group is playing too slowly, the first step is that the player/group is "put on the clock". If they don't correct their pace (which is predicated on keeping up with the group in front) within a hole or two, then penalties can be assessed for slow play. So in essence, it is only a warning for the first offense just like in disc golf.

 

[TXdiscgolfer]

I can't say I 100% agree that JohnE made the right call. Technically, did McBeth take longer than 30 seconds based on when JohnE started counting. But it is definitely up to interpretation whether JohnE started counting at the appropriate time considering Paul hadn't arrived at the tee and his reason for not arriving with the rest of the group was more than reasonable (and the rule does include the word "reasonable" as a key descriptor of the time needed to arrive at the next lie/tee).

As has been pointed out myriad times on this thread already, there were ample opportunities to call excessive time on other players during the final round and earlier rounds as well. If there is such a concern on JohnE's part to adhere to the pace of play rules, he should have been calling and warning the others as well. He was grumbling about the rules not applying the same to all players, yet he was doing exactly that by singling out McBeth for excessive time but not counting out anyone else he played with during the week.

My biggest issue with the incident is that it was clear that his intent wasn't to call Paul on excessive time. It was to call him for being late to arrive and assess him a par+4 for the hole, and that rule/penalty simply doesn't apply to that situation. His intent was to screw Paul with an unwarranted penalty. And when he was corrected on what the proper rule and penalty was for what he was trying to call, he backed down instead of going with it and warning Paul as he would have been within his right to do.

If you're going to call a violation, call it. If you get it wrong because you don't know the correct rule to apply, own up to it and apply the correct rule if still applicable. But don't call a violation based on an incorrect rule and then cry injustice because you don't understand the rules and can't penalize your opponent the way you thought he should be.

So, you are saying that he was calling him out for not showing up at the tee on time? Not the 30 seconds to throw? He did count to 30.

 

[TXdiscgolfer]

There is no shot clock in ball golf, only pace of play rules. If a player/group is playing too slowly, the first step is that the player/group is "put on the clock". If they don't correct their pace (which is predicated on keeping up with the group in front) within a hole or two, then penalties can be assessed for slow play. So in essence, it is only a warning for the first offense just like in disc golf.

Gotcha! Thanks.

 

[Pbmercil]

So, you are saying that he was calling him out for not showing up at the tee on time? Not the 30 seconds to throw? He did count to 30.

That's exactly what he was doing, because he wanted to skip Paul after his 30 seconds were up, not warn him for excessive time. He was applying the late to start rule which is only for the 1st hole of the round.

 

[TXdiscgolfer]

1 more thing, the feed of the tournament, showed Johne taking scores for everyone... anyone else catch that? I assumed everyone kept their own. I've been to some big tournaments and never noticed this before until I watched the youtube feed.

 

[TXdiscgolfer]

That's exactly what he was doing, because he wanted to skip Paul after his 30 seconds were up, not warn him for excessive time. He was applying the late to start rule which is only for the 1st hole of the round.

Gotcha.. am I wrong in thinking that if Philo does not throw after McBeth says he has to piss, this whole thing doesn't happen? Should Paul have warned himself by the spirit of the rule?

 

[lyleoross]

You are right, I stand corrected. I looked that up after I posted. Kinda a dumb rule.. A warning? I couldn't imagine a warning in ball golf. Anyways, I respect the cajones of McCray nonetheless. I met him once and he was super nice to me and my son. Chatted, signed an autograph, gave some tips to my son. Nice dude.

Actually, it's not a dumb rule, and it's set up the way it is on purpose. The intent isn't to punish a player for a delay of game, it's to keep play timely. It is an attempt to avoid backups and delays in play. Few think that a player who takes a few extra seconds is really trying to gain some advantage. The warning simply lets you know that you need to pay attention and keep on pace without giving you a stroke. John didn't have cajones, he was being petulant with comments like, "someone did it to me" and "I guess some of us are above the rules." not direct quotes, rather the spirit of his comments. As was stated, to all appearances, JohnE attempted to get an advantage, and it backfired. Ka ka ka karma?

BTW - go listen to the video, his tone and his demeanor are snotty, and then POed because he didn't get his call. Now, I've seen Nikko beat himself up so bad that he is a distraction to other players, but I've never seen a player go after another like this. Even Climo and Brown's World's behavior was better, and they had a legit beef.

 

[JC17393]

So, you are saying that he was calling him out for not showing up at the tee on time? Not the 30 seconds to throw? He did count to 30.

Yes I am.

He was counting to 30 in an effort to apply paragraph two of Competition Manual section 1.5 B. 1. The penalty for that is par plus 4 and the player doesn't play that hole, however it is only applicable for players late to arrive to start their round, not in the middle of a round.

The correct rule for taking excessive time during a round is rule 804.01. That calls for a player to make a throw within 30 seconds once three conditions are met...

1. The previous player has thrown; and,
2. The player has had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at the disc; and,
3. The playing area is clear and free of distractions.

The key one is #2...is it unreasonable for a player to duck into a restroom on the walk from one hole to the next? I don't know about anyone else, but I can't remember the last tournament round I've played in which someone in my group didn't have to take a leak at some point, whether that required running into a restroom when we passed it or finding a nearby tree off to the side somewhere. I've also played with and even been the guy who had a more urgent need for a restroom than could be taken care of behind the closest tree, and as a result took way longer than Paul did on Saturday to get back to the group. Never has it ever, other than in an entirely joking manner, been cause for someone to want to call the player for excessive time or arriving late or anything else.

This really wasn't about John being concerned about taking excessive time and standing up and making a call when no one else would. It was 100% gamesmanship backfiring because he had the wrong rule in mind in the first place.

 

[Qstick333]

The more I read this thread the more I am reminded about why I play fewer and fewer PDGA events each year. He was peeing....lol. Be a human and let the guy pee.

 

[TXdiscgolfer]

Actually, it's not a dumb rule, and it's set up the way it is on purpose. The intent isn't to punish a player for a delay of game, it's to keep play timely. It is an attempt to avoid backups and delays in play. Few think that a player who takes a few extra seconds is really trying to gain some advantage. The warning simply lets you know that you need to pay attention and keep on pace without giving you a stroke. John didn't have cajones, he was being petulant with comments like, "someone did it to me" and "I guess some of us are above the rules." not direct quotes, rather the spirit of his comments. As was stated, to all appearances, JohnE attempted to get an advantage, and it backfired. Ka ka ka karma?

BTW - go listen to the video, his tone and his demeanor are snotty, and then POed because he didn't get his call. Now, I've seen Nikko beat himself up so bad that he is a distraction to other players, but I've never seen a player go after another like this. Even Climo and Brown's World's behavior was better, and they had a legit beef.

I never said it was tactful. I met him, he was great to me and my son. No other pro has treated us like that. Who knows what got under his skin, we can speculate all we want really. He will continue to be our favourite pro.

 

[Pbmercil]

Gotcha.. am I wrong in thinking that if Philo does not throw after McBeth says he has to piss, this whole thing doesn't happen? Should Paul have warned himself by the spirit of the rule?

The first part is true. Philo could have waited for Paul to come back before throwing and the whole situation would have been avoided. However I'm hesitant think that he should have done that, as it's reasonable to just throw without Paul in the name of keeping the pace of play going. I also think it's reasonable to skip Paul's turn entirely just to keep pace of play going and let him throw whenever he gets back with no warning/penalty, tho that scenario is a little trickier in terms of applying the rules.

The answer to your last question is no. The rules of disc golf specifically forbid self called violations.

 

[AndyJB]

1 more thing, the feed of the tournament, showed Johne taking scores for everyone... anyone else catch that? I assumed everyone kept their own. I've been to some big tournaments and never noticed this before until I watched the youtube feed.

I don't think there's an exact rule on this, but I have never played a tournament, sanctioned or not, where we didn't have one person keeping score for the group. Usually we rotate out every few holes. The theory, as it was explained to me many moons ago, was that this prevents cheating. Not saying that's true, or that it's any different for National Tours. But I would find it weird to see people keeping their own score.

 

[TXdiscgolfer]

The first part is true. Philo could have waited for Paul to come back before throwing and the whole situation would have been avoided. However I'm hesitant think that he should have done that, as it's reasonable to just throw without Paul in the name of keeping the pace of play going. I also think it's reasonable to skip Paul's turn entirely just to keep pace of play going and let him throw whenever he gets back with no warning/penalty, tho that scenario is a little trickier in terms of applying the rules.

The answer to your last question is no. The rules of disc golf specifically forbid self called violations.

Thanks, puts the whole situation in perspective. I was following a thread on the feed and some boards and everyone was up in arms for someone to call a time violation. Well... it happened. LOL. Should be an interesting season.

 

[Anon]

Thanks, puts the whole situation in perspective. I was following a thread on the feed and some boards and everyone was up in arms for someone to call a time violation. Well... it happened. LOL. Should be an interesting season.

Time violations could have easily been handed out to Philo during the round because of his pre-shot routine.

That is the violation most people chatting on the stream were calling for because it is SO blatant and persistent and really stands out during a live broadcast.

JohnE's situation was just him being salty as **** and trying to call somebody for the wrong rule after he was out of the hunt for the lead. Absolutely terrible unsportsmanship like behavior.

Sounds like he apologized to McBeth after so I guess that somewhat blunts it.

 

[JC17393]

I don't think there's an exact rule on this, but I have never played a tournament, sanctioned or not, where we didn't have one person keeping score for the group. Usually we rotate out every few holes. The theory, as it was explained to me many moons ago, was that this prevents cheating. Not saying that's true, or that it's any different for National Tours. But I would find it weird to see people keeping their own score.

There is definitely an exact rule with regard to scorekeeping: 805.02.

B. Players in the group shall rotate the scorekeeping task proportionally, unless a player or a scorekeeper volunteers to keep score more and that is acceptable to all members of the group. ​

The only thing that isn't specific is the manner in which the cards are rotated. There are a number of ways to do it with the most common being that one player takes all the cards for a few holes then passes them to the next player to do the next few holes.

The rules, however, do not prevent a player from keeping his own scorecard in addition to the official one, either for their own purposes (such as personal record/stat keeping) or as a backup to the official card.

 

[corin_brown]

Gotcha.. am I wrong in thinking that if Philo does not throw after McBeth says he has to piss, this whole thing doesn't happen? Should Paul have warned himself by the spirit of the rule?

True.

I've heard a few folks question why Philo just didn't wait to throw until Paul got back on 16. I'm just speculating here, but I wouldnt be surprised if Philo had no idea that Paul was gone, off the course, at a restaurant, taking a leak. All those guys were stressed and had been grinding their brains out for four days. And Philo especially was set up for the biggest win of his career at the start of round 4. Then he bogeyed two in a row and that put him in a hole. I could tell he was reeling in his head after that and I wouldn't be surprised that by the time he teed off first at 16, his nerves were fried and might have missed that Paul was gone. Philo is class and I bet if he thought that by teeing off hastily, he would indirectly set off this chain of events that resulted in McPeeGate, he would have paused until everyone was back at the tee and tuned in. Just a guess.