2017 Next Generation Disc Golf Top Prize: Car

[lyleoross]

How does donating to vastly more skilled players "grow the sport"? IMO the sport would be better positioned to be taken seriously if players such as myself were never thought of as "professionals". (The reason we are is because dg screwed the pooch on it from the get go- "pros" existed before "amateurs" did thus creating a class of mediocre "pros" which allowed for guilting any "amateurs" with any level of skill into moving up.)

Because donating isn't my term. It's the term of ams who think they're being taken advantage of. I'm a donor because I'm not good enough to beat the guys at the top of my pool. If I won my pool, I wouldn't consider myself a donor. You interpreted what I said to fit what you wanted - that I'm donating to pros.

Business is the process of charging someone more than the cost of production to make a profit. If TDs didn't pass that money to the pros, that is, they pocketed it to make a living, no one would argue. Well except the guys who are arguing now. Instead of kavitching that the pros are getting their money through the food chain, they'd be kavitching that the pros, who would be now playing am, were kicking their backsides and that they should be in a protected pool.

You can argue that cash shouldn't be pushed up to the pro level, but then you'd simply be gambling and playing for each other's money, and no one would ever move up. Yep, the system isn't ideal, but it does work, and the PDGA pushes rules to make sure that the food chain is rewarded.

Until someone makes a magic money machine, some of us are happy that our efforts are helping to grow the sport. Sorry that bothers you.

 

[Lazerface]

Disc Golf was built on an "everybody gets something" mentality and it still persists today. My local league is $25 for 8 weeks of double play, and $65 if you want in on all ace pools and weekly 50/50 and CTPS for the whole session, or you can just pay up week to week. At the end, every player in the league (over 100) get's a $10 voucher toward the club merchandise regardless of how their team finished. Over a $1000 dollars from club/league funds so everybody goes home with something. I can think of about 1.5 million ways that money would be of better use. I honesty don't think the league players would miss it.

We are starting to see more trophy only AM tourneys and that is a good thing.

If we stop paying AMs in merchandise they will have to move up if they want to win something. The only thing worse than hearing a PRO complain about payout is hearing an AM complain about it.

It's crazy cheap to play disc golf tournaments. "Donating" as we use the term is a matter of perspective. With the cheap entry fees, players packs (crazy good ones at big AM events), and the overall experience of playing a tournament that is put on by a bunch of volunteers - I don't think anyone is donating anything. I think they are getting a pretty good bang for their buck even if they don't win a thing.

I realize some huge events can have larger entry fees, but in my experience players get their money back the moment they sign up and receive a player pack.

If we stop paying AMs in merchandise the incentive to turn pro increases and the TDs can use those funds to make the tournament better for everyone.

.....and increase the PRO payout of course

 

[loki the trickster]

The problem with this is amateur is not a skill level. It's a classification based on compensation. There is nothing wrong with a 1000 rated amateur. You want that guy to turn pro, make it worth his while to turn pro rather than force him to move.

This example gets tossed out a lot, but Tiger Woods won 3 straight US Amateur championships. He could easily have joined the pro tour after the first one (he was already playing the occasional tour event anyway), but he remained an amateur in part so he could play in college and in part so he could keep playing the US Amateur. There was no crying foul that he was cheating anyone by not "moving up" sooner.

And this with a pro tour that gave him plenty of financial incentive (not to mention endorsement opportunities) to jump in as soon as possible. He was sacrificing a good chunk of money to stay amateur (not that he will every really be hurting for it as a result).

We don't have a pro tour with that sort of financial draw. Whether they turn pro or not, 99% of disc golfers still have to go out in the real world and find a job to pay the bills. If remaining an amateur is more conducive to their continuing to play, so be it.

Thanks for picking and choosing what to argue!
You foget this is supposed to draw new players right? So how does blocking the top spots in the feild of of this tournament with a bubble that is similar to the bubble thats at the top of the professional feild draw new playes in? Cause i dont see it.

If the top players who get to the top of the finals in this tournament, cause thats what i am talking about, if they come back effectively blocking the top is that going to get more players to complete?

As for your giving a 1000 rated amateur incentive.... the pdga did give incentive its called the ability to win cash instead of equipment and apparel. So this tournament incentivizes Players to stay at a lower level to win cash removing the incentive to move up and play for money.

 

[biscoe]

Because donating isn't my term. It's the term of ams who think they're being taken advantage of. I'm a donor because I'm not good enough to beat the guys at the top of my pool. If I won my pool, I wouldn't consider myself a donor. You interpreted what I said to fit what you wanted - that I'm donating to pros.

Business is the process of charging someone more than the cost of production to make a profit. If TDs didn't pass that money to the pros, that is, they pocketed it to make a living, no one would argue. Well except the guys who are arguing now. Instead of kavitching that the pros are getting their money through the food chain, they'd be kavitching that the pros, who would be now playing am, were kicking their backsides and that they should be in a protected pool.

You can argue that cash shouldn't be pushed up to the pro level, but then you'd simply be gambling and playing for each other's money, and no one would ever move up. Yep, the system isn't ideal, but it does work, and the PDGA pushes rules to make sure that the food chain is rewarded.

Until someone makes a magic money machine, some of us are happy that our efforts are helping to grow the sport. Sorry that bothers you.

You used the term "donor" in a conversation regarding ams turning pro. Forgive my transgression. If you are playing with ams and feel you are donor there is always a different division available to you.

How you extrapolated it to me being bothered by what you do is another question entirely.

 

[loki the trickster]

Disc Golf was built on an "everybody gets something" mentality and it still persists today. My local league is $25 for 8 weeks of double play, and $65 if you want in on all ace pools and weekly 50/50 and CTPS for the whole session, or you can just pay up week to week. At the end, every player in the league (over 100) get's a $10 voucher toward the club merchandise regardless of how their team finished. Over a $1000 dollars from club/league funds so everybody goes home with something. I can think of about 1.5 million ways that money would be of better use. I honesty don't think the league players would miss it.

We are starting to see more trophy only AM tourneys and that is a good thing.

If we stop paying AMs in merchandise they will have to move up if they want to win something. The only thing worse than hearing a PRO complain about payout is hearing an AM complain about it.

It's crazy cheap to play disc golf tournaments. "Donating" as we use the term is a matter of perspective. With the cheap entry fees, players packs (crazy good ones at big AM events), and the overall experience of playing a tournament that is put on by a bunch of volunteers - I don't think anyone is donating anything. I think they are getting a pretty good bang for their buck even if they don't win a thing.

I realize some huge events can have larger entry fees, but in my experience players get their money back the moment they sign up and receive a player pack.

If we stop paying AMs in merchandise the incentive to turn pro increases and the TDs can use those funds to make the tournament better for everyone.

.....and increase the PRO payout of course

:clap: :clap: :clap: :thmbup:

 

[JC17393]

Thanks for picking and choosing what to argue!
You foget this is supposed to draw new players right? So how does blocking the top spots in the feild of of this tournament with a bubble that is similar to the bubble thats at the top of the professional feild draw new playes in? Cause i dont see it.

If the top players who get to the top of the finals in this tournament, cause thats what i am talking about, if they come back effectively blocking the top is that going to get more players to complete?

As for your giving a 1000 rated amateur incentive.... the pdga did give incentive its called the ability to win cash instead of equipment and apparel. So this tournament incentivizes Players to stay at a lower level to win cash removing the incentive to move up and play for money.

"This" being the Next Generation Tour? No, it's not about drawing new players (at least not new to the game players). It's pretty obvious that the NGT is about catering to the highest level of amateur competition. That's why it's one division and rewards winning rather than participation (via a points system). If people want a chance to win this thing, they have to earn it, not have obstacles (i.e. past winners) removed from their path.

Even with big grand prizes, there's no way that anyone is going to make a living touring on an amateur non-cash tour. There's only so far one can go trying to convert won merchandise into cash before they decide that playing for straight cash is an easier road.

As for growing the game and drawing new players, the PDGA model is working just fine. And they are working to make it less about the prizes, considering that all PDGA major amateur events and many of the larger non-majors are now utilizing the True Amateur system emphasizing player pack and overall value versus big prize payouts.

The NGT is an alternative way of doing things, but it isn't going to replace or usurp what already exists, nor should it.

 

[Cgkdisc]

True Am with player packs versus our sport's traditional merch model doesn't really change tournament economics since the net payout to Ams is supposed to remain the same. It's the new "everybody's a winner" versus original "competing to win stuff" model for amateur play that some credit as a key element fueling the fast growth in our sport. However, the True Am format makes it easier on TDs/vendors to provide merchandise, especially at big events which is partly the reason the PDGA now requires it for Am Majors. Doing large merch prizes at big am events was many times a nightmare in the past.

Trying to move back to Traditional Amateur competition, which sometimes includes small player packs with promotional items, would reduce money coming into the sport. The merch genie has been out of the bottle for a long time. These days, Traditional Am is probably only suited for expanding school age competition which is mostly non-existent.

Our amateur models bring money into the sport. Pro competition is typically a net loss for TDs in both effort and money. What financial incentives do TDs have to offer pro divisions versus am divisions when you look at our event financial structure? In other words, it's in the best interest of TDs if players remain ams as long as possible.

 

[lyleoross]

"This" being the Next Generation Tour? No, it's not about drawing new players (at least not new to the game players). It's pretty obvious that the NGT is about catering to the highest level of amateur competition. That's why it's one division and rewards winning rather than participation (via a points system). If people want a chance to win this thing, they have to earn it, not have obstacles (i.e. past winners) removed from their path.

Even with big grand prizes, there's no way that anyone is going to make a living touring on an amateur non-cash tour. There's only so far one can go trying to convert won merchandise into cash before they decide that playing for straight cash is an easier road.

As for growing the game and drawing new players, the PDGA model is working just fine. And they are working to make it less about the prizes, considering that all PDGA major amateur events and many of the larger non-majors are now utilizing the True Amateur system emphasizing player pack and overall value versus big prize payouts.

The NGT is an alternative way of doing things, but it isn't going to replace or usurp what already exists, nor should it.

While I think everything here is correct, I'd add in that they are trying to expose prexisting players to their plastic. I suspect there is a dynamic relationship between players and their discs. It's fairly inflexible when it comes to marketing them to buy new discs and try them, but less so if you hand them a new disc. All manufacturers do this in some form, this is just a very dynamic attention grabbing version that is aimed at more advanced players who are probably much less likely to change plastic.

 

[bnbanbury]

Seriously? If you have the top 10%of ams that can compete with the professionals and they dont bump up it creates the exact same bubble thats in the professional feild. You know the one that make amateurs not want to move up and play to there potential. Well you get that at with the new amateurs that this tournament is supposed to be targeting. Why are they going to want to play when only the top 10% of the feild has a chance to win but the top 10% also wont need to move aside to allow the new and rest of the feild compete for the top prize.

So lets just for argument sake and adding names to people... lets say that the am feild is much like the pro feild where Paul and Ricky now are the top amateurs! How many players will get the opportunity to win the top prize? Probably none at all. But taking the 970 and above players or overall winners and removing them from the next year's competition. This would allow the 940 and 950 amateurs a opportunity to compete for the top prizes.

This is not about forcing the bump as much as it is keeping the amateur feild true. As it stands you can be 990-1000 rated and still play amateur. So what you saying is its okay to have the skill set and proformance of a pro competing in the amateur ranks and the 880-950 amateurs are going to be okay donating money to someone who definitely can play with the professionals and take money? Now lest look at this series you have to qualify to move on who is going to move on the 970 player or the 930-940 player?

If more people stayed in the amateur ranks, then the 880-930 rated players would be more comfortable playing intermediate and the higher rated ams could play in competitive am fields. As already mentioned there is incentive for a 1000 rated player to move up: the fact that they are likely forfeiting a few thousand dollars by not playing pro. That's why almost no one chooses to do this. If someone wants to be an am, I have no problem with it regardless of his or her rating as i really believe that the stronger the am fields are, the better for the local clubs and TDs.

 

[Consult20]

"This" being the Next Generation Tour? No, it's not about drawing new players (at least not new to the game players). It's pretty obvious that the NGT is about catering to the highest level of amateur competition. That's why it's one division...

JC, I believe there will be multiple divisions, same as last year, but only the Advanced division winner will receive a car.


"We started with the big idea…. "let's give away a car"…. from there we developed a series that not only awarded a new car but also: pays every competitor back well over 100%; offers options for every amateur of all skills; and provides one-of-a-kind player and prize packages at our championship tournaments. We look forward to sharing more detail the coming weeks – but it's critical to note without the support of Latitude 64 none of it would be possible." said Feldberg.

 

[loki the trickster]

"This" being the Next Generation Tour? No, it's not about drawing new players (at least not new to the game players). It's pretty obvious that the NGT is about catering to the highest level of amateur competition. That's why it's one division and rewards winning rather than participation (via a points system). If people want a chance to win this thing, they have to earn it, not have obstacles (i.e. past winners) removed from their path.

Even with big grand prizes, there's no way that anyone is going to make a living touring on an amateur non-cash tour. There's only so far one can go trying to convert won merchandise into cash before they decide that playing for straight cash is an easier road.

As for growing the game and drawing new players, the PDGA model is working just fine. And they are working to make it less about the prizes, considering that all PDGA major amateur events and many of the larger non-majors are now utilizing the True Amateur system emphasizing player pack and overall value versus big prize payouts.

The NGT is an alternative way of doing things, but it isn't going to replace or usurp what already exists, nor should it.

Then do tell what its all about if it's not to bring out new golfers to tournaments?

A amateur disc golfer should not be worried about making disc golf there living income. A amateur disc golfer should be more worried about challenging and building upon one's own skill untill a time where they are competitive enough to play in the professionals to make a living.

 

[DavidSauls]

A amateur disc golfer should be more worried about challenging and building upon one's own skill untill a time where they are competitive enough to play in the professionals to make a living.

Thanks, but as a lifelong amateur, I'll decide for myself what I want to worry about. And it won't be about making a living as a professional, one day.

 

[lyleoross]

You used the term "donor" in a conversation regarding ams turning pro. Forgive my transgression. If you are playing with ams and feel you are donor there is always a different division available to you.

How you extrapolated that to me being bothered by what you do is another question entirely.

You are correct, I was not careful enough about my use of the term. You are also correct, I had assumed that your response to my post asking how donating to vastly superior players profited the sport indicated things it might not have. My apologies.

Since we are clear now let's get back to your question. How does my (or all those donating ams) being a donor (let's just assume it's to pros) help grow the sport?

Well, I can't really answer your question by linking events together. I can only look at the results. Number of PDGA members, up. Number of courses, up. Number of events, up. Amount of payouts, up. Number of sponsored traveling pros, up. Number of manufactures, up. I'm guessing here, but since all the other things are up, I'm going to assume revenue is up. Even innovation is with new discs, bags, and those fancy carts.

While our donating may not be helping, apparently it's not hurting. I guess I'll just have to live with that.

 

[loki the trickster]

Thanks, but as a lifelong amateur, I'll decide for myself what I want to worry about. And it won't be about making a living as a professional, one day.

So how would you feel if the only people who win in your feild are sand bagging and always block the top by playing amateur so they could win?

I am sure there is 15-20% of the amateur feild that has the ability to play pro just as there is 10-15% of pros that dont have the ability to play in the pro feild.

 

[bnbanbury]

A amateur disc golfer should not be worried about making disc golf there living income. A amateur disc golfer should be more worried about challenging and building upon one's own skill untill a time where they are competitive enough to play in the professionals to make a living.

If the professional tours continue to progress the gap between the amateur and professional ranks will only widen. It should be ok for a decent golfer who has real life responsibilities to play am. I think if every am plays with a focus on one day of making a living from disc golf there will be a lot of disappointed golfers. I hope we one day get to the point where, as in traditional golf, there are good golfers who have regular responsibilities and play am and the professional tours can do their thing. I think an am tour is a nice idea in that spirit. If anything the people i see getting left behind based on the current trends in dg are the lower end pros who may end up wishing they'd held on to their am status.

 

[JC17393]

JC, I believe there will be multiple divisions, same as last year, but only the Advanced division winner will receive a car.


"We started with the big idea…. "let's give away a car"…. from there we developed a series that not only awarded a new car but also: pays every competitor back well over 100%; offers options for every amateur of all skills; and provides one-of-a-kind player and prize packages at our championship tournaments. We look forward to sharing more detail the coming weeks – but it's critical to note without the support of Latitude 64 none of it would be possible." said Feldberg.

As a TD for one of the qualifiers, I can say with certainty that will be only one division. There are, however, optional side bets (for lack of a better term) for players who are eligible for other divisions (Masters, Women, etc). Ultimately, everyone is competing in the same pool (the one that leads to the car).

 

[bnbanbury]

So how would you feel if the only people who win in your feild are sand bagging and always block the top by playing amateur so they could win?

I am sure there is 15-20% of the amateur feild that has the ability to play pro just as there is 10-15% of pros that dont have the ability to play in the pro feild.

There is no sandbagging in AM1, that's just terminology people use to perpetuate the culture of trying to move people up. Your estimate of 10-15% in the pro field that aren't really competing is far too low. Take the recent Nashville open, the first tournament i looked at to illustrate this point, http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/30800. Every player sub-973 fails to cash and even those in the 970s have to shoot well above their ratings to finish in the back of cash. The top few guys get everyone's money, plus the added cash that the club put in, and the sport is somehow better for this?

Don't misunderstand me, if people want to play pro who are rarely going to compete, it doesn't bother me one bit. But i would like to see a shift in the culture such that some of those guys on the lower end of pro would feel ok playing am if they want to.

 

[Consult20]

As a TD for one of the qualifiers, I can say with certainty that will be only one division. There are, however, optional side bets (for lack of a better term) for players who are eligible for other divisions (Masters, Women, etc). Ultimately, everyone is competing in the same pool (the one that leads to the car).

Interesting approach, thanks for somewhat clarifying.

 

[DanJon]

So how would you feel if the only people who win in your feild are sand bagging and always block the top by playing amateur so they could win?

I am sure there is 15-20% of the amateur feild that has the ability to play pro just as there is 10-15% of pros that dont have the ability to play in the pro feild.

If it was a sanctioned tournament, they wouldn't be sandbagging as there are rating caps.

 

[JC17393]

If it was a sanctioned tournament, they wouldn't be sandbagging as there are rating caps.

To be fair to loki's point, there is no ratings cap on Advanced for amateur players. As long as you do not accept cash in a pro division (or renew as a pro), you can play Advanced forever regardless of division.

But the larger point is true in that in sanctioned events, sandbagging is next to impossible because of ratings. Lower divisions don't allow players who are rated too high, and as Advanced is an uncapped division ratings-wise, it's impossible to be overqualified for that division if you are an amateur player.