<300 ft working on form again

[sidewinder22]

That looks a lot better!

Might be hard to do with socks on wood floor, more grip the better the leverage. Play around somewhat with your rear foot placement. Also might be an optical illusion with your hip tilt there, doesn't look bad to me.

Looks like your rear knee might be locked out there, want to maintain just a little flex so that you don't over-commit yourself backwards so that you can still make a forward move when you push off the foot/ankle extension.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

Before your last reply, I headed to my garage to try and get a feel for the altered pull, and also to get some focus time where I could try and combine mechanics that usually take all my focus. I did 18 throws over an hour:



Observations:

- I got a few where I could maintain flexion / full turn but...
- There's a gap between that, full extension, and the pull, where I am a bit lost. Nothing feels right. Brace / hip pull is mostly gone there.
- I tried a few slower shots. Def. felt the most off. Unsure if I should put time into slowing down as a means to link up and improve various mechanics
- The full turn + left arm tuck, when I execute it, always produces more power than I was intending.

Looks like your rear knee might be locked out there, want to maintain just a little flex so that you don't over-commit yourself backwards so that you can still make a forward move when you push off the foot/ankle extension.

Next garage session I'll give this some focus time, I think this was bad in most throws. Also:

- I forgot to "swing", I think I am just pulling forward with my body whole way through. I'd like to try to actively "swing" as I plant :doh:
- I am not actively pulling with my right arm. I'd like to try pulling just after I plant / left arm tuck and see if it feels like anything

 

[sidewinder22]

Your front foot/leg is spinning out before you shift. Need to commit to landing more backwards on front foot/leg and putting your heel into the ground for stability. Go thru this slow, short motion like Crush the Can and SC demonstrates the 1-2" shift from behind. Psychologically you will revert to spinning out if you try to do this from an x-step or big stride. Need to gain confidence and trust with the tiny shift from behind motion first before moving on. One Leg Drill will also help, just remaining planted on front foot with a tiny shift back and forth, and also just keeping the left arm tucked like Marc Jarvis.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

 

[NotActuallyChris]

You know that reminded me, last time I got serious about practice I did mostly stand stills and a lot of one-steps modeling after the schusterick video (but of course, I mis-understood his swing and focused entirely on the upper body).



Er... the above one is really janky on the real throws... I re-uploaded and its the same. Maybe after it finishes "processing" it will be fixed. Sliced out the last one and re-uploaded here:



I see what you mean about trust. I half trusted it here. It is still a spin, but I get the foot on the ground first. It is like this slow process of connecting from the back leg, through the hip, up the back, and into the arm. I can press my heel into the ground but can tell my weight is not all there yet, and it seems a bit like I swing and spin on it and fully brace after.

I do a fair amount of the 1-2 motion before most of these throws (assuming that's the start back swing, plant and feel it but don't initiate the throw). The nod to the gods moment right?

 

[NotActuallyChris]

Er, I should be clear about what I think I see so you can help correct me if wrong: In the latest videos, I am doing a little better but still bailing out and swapping to shifting in front (and spinning). So the weight shift / hips mostly look ok until I bail, and with some even slower / shorter repetition / drills you suggested I will hang on a bit longer and progress? Or is there an additional major issue I need to fix?

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to finish balanced standing up on front leg. You are falling back off behind your front leg and spinning your feet out. It will probably feel weird and over the top to you to get it like One Leg Drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogonOY1DoHU#t=40m
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167

 

[NotActuallyChris]

I did a few times on one leg but couldn't quite get a balanced feel. Thought I might go out to the field today and, while focusing on the same things I've been working on, pay special attention to the end of my throw and then adjust. Also adjusting to using a one step, which is helping a lot to feel and see the balance and positioning. Progress was going ok and felt like it would be a good day. Then I kind of stumbled onto something new. I was watching video's while there, and thinking about really pressing my plant foot into the ground. Like you said to do. Which I've done a few times, and felt it move my hips. But disconnected in a way. Today, did the same. A few awkward attempts and then, suddenly, I felt it. It, how you use your body weight and push from your balanced foot up through your hips. Once I felt it, I threw everything else out the window and just tried to hold on and capture it. And I did. These throws here look and went worse than anything in the last 5 or so sessions. But holy **** did they feel different:



Reminds of when I tried spinning my hips (prior thread). Except now instead of spinning them, I'm pushing them open with the plant. I just _barely_ have it. I can directly feel how the other things we've been working on, that I havne't quite gotten yet, directly affect my ability to drive my hips open with my weight.



Does it look like nothing? It feels so different. Explosive. Honestly, a little scary. As excited as I was I actually stopped as usual, I didn't want to push it. I can't wait to improve on this but like i said, it feels a bit frightening. You just get your weight going, start applying pressure into the ground then suddenly its like it explodes and you are just trying to hold on with your hold body. I know why people make that "oh ****" face when they throw far now. Even though I was focusing on driving my foot into the ground, it felt like it was going to launch off the ground. In the video's above it kind of does. And this is with hilariously off balance, no left arm posted, leading wrong way, everything a little off, bad everything else form. What is it going to feel like when I get all that into it, and get my balance correct so I can utilize all of my weight, and remove all of the blocks?

Sorry for the rant. The feeling is simply unreal. Which is funny because looking at it, unless you are staring at my plant foot it just looks like a bad throw with a hundred obvious flaws. The discs went off target, into the ground, 100 ft left, etc. But on the journey to finding good form these are the best throws I've ever made.

 

[sidewinder22]

Definitely looks better, except both your arms are dragging behind your body.

The feel you want is that the front leg pumps the swing in supreme dynamic balance like Olympic Hammer Throw. You don't really want your front foot to jump back off the ground, you basically want to keep crushing the can into the ground all the way into the finish.

This is easier to feel since there is very little horizontal motion/stride and most of the force is vertical. When you add horizontal motion/stride, then leg has to angle / into dynamic brace and finish l vertical stacked.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

3-4 sessions since last post. Tried someone leg drills and can crushing but things didn't feel quite right. I eventually supposed that my dragging arm positioning is actually throwing off everything else and began working on that. After a bit of effort, I think I'm back in a good direction. A few videos and analysis.

First, I noticed my body wants to fall left (looking down teepad), like simon. Except now that I know how to plant (ya know, kind of), the plant didnt feel as natural so I was sure this was not correct. I thought my body direction might be compensating for my rounding. I tried very hard to focus on getting an inside out motion, so as I kind of yank my relaxed arm it extends away from and not into my body, and then yanks in. An entire field work session then at the very end I captured it. Quite ugly (and lower body out the window), but its there:





I put very little effort and no lower body / plant into it, and was getting them just over 300. And very consistent. Yes. Observations:


1. Without inside out back swing, nothing else seems to matter (for me). With it, even poorly, I immediately hit max distance with low effort.

2. With it, it becomes MUCH easier to direct my body weight forward.

3. My LOW ELBOW position is the next challenge. I believe it explains my grip issue, and specifically why I have trouble keeping my wrist supinated. In the attached image, if I were to just extend my right arm it would naturally be more pronated and towards the ground .


I managed to correct this on the last (un-recorded) throws and wow, my grip felt "free" -- .e.g. straight and nose down and lots of pressure in my hand despite low effort. Moreoever, in addition to feeling more natural to move my body straighter, my "shift from behind" went from feeling forced to more natural. I'll need to get another full 1-2 sessions in and recorded to see if that is true.


I did have to change these things: relax my arm, actively pull it to my chest (very lightly).


My notes for my next session:


1. Focus on getting right arm inside out in backswing
2. ELBOW UP UP UP UP UP UP
3. Relaxed arm / active pull to body

Ideally I can get 10-20 throws in a row with an inside out motion and my elbow up, and then see if getting my CoG and balance on front leg changes feeling more natural.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like your shoulder/humerus rotates externally as you try to create a power pocket, so your elbow drops and you never get the disc to swing inward into your chest/CoG and load internal shoulder/humerus rotation with the elbow leading up/out, to eject the lower arm/disc back out away from your center.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aADjcR_ZtUw&t=5m45s
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132910

You likely need to adjust your grip to allow that ^ to happen holding a disc.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3440757&postcount=4

 

[NotActuallyChris]

Purchased a net and 4 more sessions since last post.

Focusing on shift from behind primarily (success?), inside out, and elbow up (fail)



Paused arm / inside out focus after realizing how much I was pushing the disc back, and instead focused on combining shift from behind with leaving disc in place:


Observations:

1. I think I had a shift from behind breakthrough -- my pull feels directly towards my body, more natural. My back foot shifts off the ground very differently (did not notice until video)
2. When I combine leaving disc in place with shift from behind, my entire left arm posting (swinging into body, then firmly posting) is extremely natural.

I hope those components look like they are in the right direction because they felt very good. Assuming so, plan for next sessions:

1. Do a few sessions dedicated to shift from behind + leaving disc in place
2. Do some slow sessions focusing on humerus rotation and playing with grip (notes below)

shoulder/humerus rotates externally as you ... You likely need to adjust your grip to allow that ^ to happen holding a disc.

This blew my mind. I can't believe I never paid attention to my humerus rotation. I definitely need a few sessions dedicated to playing with this, but immediately I feel like I have more control over where it is. I can't wait to spend some time with this.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

One more thing...

Picked up on one more thing -- my CoG being too far back (right, when looking from side). We talked about my CoG being off in both directions (left, when looking down teepad. Right, when looking from side). Neither is fixed yet but just another observation. I noticed in the second video, I seemed to slow down and speed up in the motion which seemed weird. Now I think I know why. My CoG is too far back (right, when looking from side). Now that I've improved my weight shift (or perhaps timing) when I leave disc in place, I think its me (subconsciously) correcting the balance issue after the fact. A side effect that had puzzled me until now, was why I could not take a longer stride with my back foot, like Eagle does. The attached image is about as big as I can take without losing balance.

Of course, just like the plant foot, it has nothing to do with where you oare intentionally placing your foot, and everything to do with where you are placing your CoG / weight shift -- your feet merely move to accomadate. Eagle's, Simon's, (and others) back foot crosses / strides so long because their CoG is much more forward. Its just them naturally staying balanced.

It perhaps also has to do with me turning back a bit early. So turning back later w/ hips more forward perhaps.

So another thing to play with, rather than thinking about my back foot at all, is to just try and get my butt / CoG more forward (left, when looking from side), and / or turning back later while watching this. That area probably pairs well with the leave it behind exercise I was going to work on.

 

[sidewinder22]

Definitely looking better and observations are correct. Your backswing sequence is a little out of order as you turn back early.

You are still pulling instead of slinging and getting into good power pocket position. Your right shoulder stays up and your elbow drops down. You want your elbow to follow your shoulder. Right shoulder needs to drop down into the throw, and left shoulder needs to post up/rise up in backswing for the right shoulder to swing from.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

This is session 19. Was going to do a few more sessions before posting, but had some key observations already that I want to log, esp. relating to shoulder (after watching and practicing your EPIC battering ram video, lol).

Three segments here:
1. Demo of re-imagining broomstick in my hand from bow and arrow, to get a feel for timing
2. Timing highlight: Eyes on target letting shoulders turn back
3. Same thing but more focusign on dipping my shoulder



Observations:
- Timing: Improving but not there yet. Takes a lot of focus and is impacting other mechanics. A few more sessions getting them back into balance is needed.
- Shoulder rising: I believe I found the point my right shoulder rises, ~2/3 into the backswing. It simply stays up from that point onward. It was most obvious in that first video segment, which is why I included it. I can probably work on this (somewhat) without even throwing since its in the setup.
- Dipping shoulder: In final throw(s) i worked on dipping shoulder, but this was prior to realizing when my shoulder was rising. I think I can work on this more effectively now. However one additional note -- when my shoudler is dipped I regress on the bow and arrow, and am clearly leading with my shoulder instead of my hip.
- Grip: Accidentally noticed this, will not focus yet: I am wrapping but not engaging my pinky / ring finger in my grip. This is probably where I am losing a lot of my grip strength from. Sweet, this is an easy fix.


I can hardly stress enough how helpful the bow and arrow visualization has been. Its one of the few images that lets me focus on multiple points at once.


A stand alone note on the left arm post and extension. I had spent numerous sessions on this and it would always regress. But I now believe its a little bit like "spinning on the heel" (sic, actually having a firm, engaged plant foot) -- its more of a sign of doing other things right than something you intentionally do. And for me it seems to work like this:
- Focus on shift from behind -- left arm naturally moves into body
- Focus on brace / squeeze -- left arm naturally extends (downward).

In particular I noticed in some throws where I was focusing on hip engagement, my left arm would only extend but my left hand would tense into a grip (similar to Eagle / Simon, did not include the video since its not my focal point). I had no recollection of even doing that. Super cool.


For next time:

1. Focus on shoulder dipping 2/3 into the backswing. I bet it is correlated with my hip position
2. #1, while continuing to lead with hip (bow and arrow)
3. Continue timing focus

Hopefully my next update will have those fixed and I can begin focusing on grip, then improving weight and brace.

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to hinge/bend/sit more into your rear hip during the stride into the plant. Your rear hip remains extended pushing you over the top.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

(No up-to-date video or request for feedback, just progress notes)

So I took your advice and the lower body was progressing. But as December closed out I became increasingly frustrated: I could not keep my shoulder from collapsing and dragging. I tried a bunch of stuff, most of it hilariously bad. I eventually let it get to me, and after about five more practice sessions gave up. About 25 practice sessions and 10 rounds since I started getting serious, and I was still throwing under 300. Maybe I'm just not meant to get it.


Of course I came crawling back a month later. With a clearer head I studied more film, comments, etc, and came to realize without the power pocket, nothing matters. My arm was collapsing, I needed to slow ALL the way down. My muscle memory is very strong and very bad. I have to start over. And I did. I did stuff like this (I did not record most things):




I played rounds where I would throw putters 50 ft but focus on JUST getting my elbow to bend fully. I was frankly floored at how far they would go with 10% effort. I studied my form to try and understand where it was breaking down. tl;dr I am on a better path now. I am not trying to throw far, but am consistently clearing 300. The Udisc shot below is my favorite, b/c it was through a tunnel of trees and was ~10ft off the ground the entire flight. I had maybe 50% of my shots getting out to that 320-330 range. A couple turnovers are getting much further than 330, but not counting those until they are intentional and on target. Still a long way to go, but so grateful I finally have some progress.

But by far my favorite change is the discs come out flatter. Before it was predictable hyzer out or a turn and burn wobbler. Now its like every disc, even when going 200ft, has come alive. They all fly flatter and turn at different rates. Its like before every disc flew the same, now they all fly differently.


1. I lean more forward now, but do so by sitting back further. It feels good, but hard to describe.
2. My tendedncy to swing out wide and round on reach back kills everything, but if I think "inside out" I can control it.
3. The first feeling of the throw is almost like my left butt is tugging my right (throwing) arm.
4. The second feeling is like a driving of my right shoulder down. It has replaced what I used to do (pull forward). It is also why I used to always, no matter why, "stand up" even when I was trying to lean forward.
5. My release point feels MUCH more to the side of me than before.


I predict if I stay on this path and not change anything, just continue to wash away my prior muscle memory instincts with reptition and SLOW practice, I think my mechanics will get me over 400. It definitely feels like my 320+ ft throws are not at all hard, and also don't capitalize on 1-5 above (particularly timing wise).

 

[sidewinder22]

Arm looks better. Your feet/heels are spinning out and you fall over to the left tee. Watch how I end up finishing to the right tee side pivoting on front leg.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973

 

[NotActuallyChris]

Three throws.



Focal point was humerus rotation in reachback (note disc angle) and turning back later. I _think_ the second two throws are beter, even though the brace is worse (not planted when swing begins).

Observations

- Later turn back (is helping with balance)
- Wing down (is helping with rounding, a bit)
- Brace is FUBAR
- But back leg push off is improved


TODO (dep. on feedback)

- Keep: later turn back, I think it is helping timing / weight
- Keep: wing down at reach back, it feels natural
- Keep: Back leg push off (IDK how to describe this, its correlated with my back leg turning in even though that is not what I am trying to do, in my head I am initiating my swing by pulling my arm with my body, before intentionally swinging))

- Change: Reach back a bit straighter (I think will help rounding)
- Change: Get front-foot (heel) down and engaged before swinging
- Change: (I think) Still need to straighten out my x-step, I think I am drifting left (looking down teepad)

Curious how much the rounding / shoulder collapse will improve with a straighter reach back (straight probably mis-nomer, I think the way I am reaching out while turning is too wide, so there's some inertia swinging my upper arm into my body / collapsing shoulder when I initiate swing but )

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, too wide reachback. Note how your disc never swings in behind your elbow, or your elbow is going to the right and never goes forward out to the left.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973

 

[NotActuallyChris]

I had not seen the reply before I took these (~1 hour afterwards, yesterday); I think studying and trying the figure 8 pattern will definitely help. Adding this session regardless because I had one additional insight / question.

Straightened reach back, helps a _little_



Realized I had built a habit of carrying some tension in my arm, for a few throws (and here) focused on relaxing to the max before swinging


Observations:
- Straight arm helped a little, not a lot. A bit moot until I test / incorporate your figure 8 suggestion. Comments below
- Relaxing my arm, wow. Instantly felt lower impact and like my lower body was doing the work.
- Late turn back / arm positioning still dominate my focus (not natural yet). I am pretty sure I can fix my CoG and brace or at least greatly improve them once my prior changes have settled and I can shift my focus. I remain curious how fixing my CoG / brace will impact my arm motion (other than improving velocity).



I realize now when I rail about my 50-200ft effortless throws where I "intentionally bend my elbow", I'm actually doing a very exagerated figure 8 which is quite different from my full swing. My only issue is, its a very active arm driven motion. Question then: How relaxed do you suppose the pros arms are, and at what point in the figure 8 motion? If this is addressed in the other thread, feel free to ignore as I plan on studying that next.


Plan (next 3-4 sessions):
- Let late turn back / loose arm settle in
- Incorporate figure 8 + feedback
- Move on to lower body if it goes well


Oh, one last thing. 1.5 years ago I paused because of shoulder soreness. I am sure it was a tweaked muscle / tendon. I realized yesterday, for the first time since then, I am 100% pain free. Grateful for it, and praying it remains that way until I get through these changes. Changes and distance are coming rapidly, seemingly every single session now.