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ALL Mach baskets should be outlawed in pro tournaments!

Exactly!

Honestly, the PDGA would gain a ton from funding the project.

The PDGA would not gain a thing from funding said project. Baskets are not holding anything back. The only one who would gain anything would be whichever manufacturer landed on top of the testing and I suspect their gains would be marginal.
 
No reason to test unless there's a mission to determine a single basket design among existing designs. Don't see that happening.

This is not entirely true. If you determine a set of parameters that must be adhered to (disc speed, amount of disc within catch area etc.) and a machine that throws uniformly, you can test all existing and new baskets to that standard and determine if they are fit for tournament play.
 
This is not entirely true. If you determine a set of parameters that must be adhered to (disc speed, amount of disc within catch area etc.) and a machine that throws uniformly, you can test all existing and new baskets to that standard and determine if they are fit for tournament play.
There's little economic incentive to do so for current target designs which have been primarily for recreational play (sturdy and long service life as possible for lowest cost). Let's say we really want a better target for consistent performance in professional play. First, decide if we want consistent performance for simply striking a target zone or for landing in a bucket. The current basket is a hybrid attempt to meet both of those goals and could be improved in either direction with a design that doesn't currently exist.
 
I have noticed that galvanized baskets will oxidize on the slides, causing them to stick. If they are played on a lot they glaze up and slide really nice.
The Xs at fountain don't slide on the slides. They are rough from oxidation.

I would also bet that since the inner chains are so unified on the X, the outter chains don't slide much. Thus never glazing up. And not sliding as nice as they should.

The S hooks are stainless but the entire top assembly is hot dipped galvanized. If the entire top assembly were all stainless steel, the slide function would probably work much better. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost of the basket, but it would be interesting to see the difference.
 

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How big is the target area? If it touches a single chain should that be caught? I suggest that at least half the disc must be within the width of the target....

We could replicate the original idea in the patent for the pole hole. It was designed verify that the disc hit the pole. So an edge of the disc would have to be on a line that would intersect the pole.

Which means a smaller catch area when the disc is near vertical. Would targets with bigger poles be required to catch more discs? Would manufacturers be allowed to choose the test disc? I imagine a large diameter gummy putter might be caught more on some baskets, while another basket might be designed to let a small diameter slippery disc slip into its internal trap.

Don't forget to add specs for wind speed. What's maximum wind speed at which it needs to catch that percent of putts? So, the testing will need to be done in a wind tunnel. And, of course, we'll need to set a maximum slope so we can measure the catch percentage when the wind is going up the slope or down the slope.

How many styles of putts would be tested? Cale's hyzer putts that slant into the basket, Ricky's blasts, loft putts from outside the circle?

After we have the standards, would designers be allowed to place obstacles where they interfere with the lines that the machine tested?
 
No reason to test unless there's a mission to determine a single basket design among existing designs. Don't see that happening.

No, your premise is wrong. You can get single basket design just by decree. Doing such would be a mistake as it would cause more bro ha ha than anything.

I'm going to point out two things you'd accomplish. To your point here. Experimentation allows you to define how a good basket should perform. Speed range of putts that should stay in the basket, heights, angles, side to side ability to catch.

How a manufacturer meets those standards is up to the manufacturer. There might be a dozen or even a hundred ways to meet the desired numbers. Who succeedshould? Presumably, the company that finds the most cost effective durable path. In reality? Have you read the MVP discs are better than Innova discs thread? Marketing my friend.

Let's now go to the central argument of this thread, random outcomes and their existence. You are going to answer this question directly and unequivocally. Either Chuck gets to do the a kicked Lyle's butt, victory dance, or I get to do the I kicked Chuck's butt victory dance. Either should be fun.

Now, I know you're going to prove my thesis correct so I'm all for it. I'm thinkin' Chuck knows he's going to lose so he doesn't want it. Hell be denied the intrinsic pleasure of saying baskets are flukey ever again.

I have a meeting, but I'll come back later and tell you why I think random will be eliminated later.
 
true... this argument doesn't matter to me unless we're talking about putting a robot arm on baskets that will catch my putt that is three feet off to the right and heading down the danger hill leaving me with a thirty footer for double bogey :|
 
.... this thread got me a new prank idea.

Next time I roll out with a crew and a fresh newbie I will bring a small oil can. I and buddies will tell newb they get the honor and duty of oiling the chain sliders on the first 3 holes. ... (vegetable oil of course)

Send him out for a board stretcher while you're at it...
 
memphis.jpg
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I've seen those, but have never played on one... how are they?
 
Well there is no such thing as a spit out on a cone from my experience. Ive played two locally and one i hit up all the time. Its just another basket really. Either make the putt or miss. Might even be better vs chain styled ones.
 
I wonder what happens when you're left or right of center though
 
Its pretty cut and dry on cones IMO.

Any putt that isnt on point generally doesnt go in. You might be able to sneak a few in on a hyzer angle or anny depending on shot. (That one pictured is not like the real cones ive played on with smaller hitting area.)
 
The more I read in this thread, the more convinced I get that only Mach I baskets should be used in A-tier-and-above tournaments.

I almost agree with this thought.......
I would one certain change, a deeper basket similar to what we have now (latest DGA)
I could consider maybe more chain, but only if they would not be inside of the outer chains
 
We could replicate the original idea in the patent for the pole hole. It was designed verify that the disc hit the pole. So an edge of the disc would have to be on a line that would intersect the pole.

Which means a smaller catch area when the disc is near vertical. Would targets with bigger poles be required to catch more discs? Would manufacturers be allowed to choose the test disc? I imagine a large diameter gummy putter might be caught more on some baskets, while another basket might be designed to let a small diameter slippery disc slip into its internal trap.

Don't forget to add specs for wind speed. What's maximum wind speed at which it needs to catch that percent of putts? So, the testing will need to be done in a wind tunnel. And, of course, we'll need to set a maximum slope so we can measure the catch percentage when the wind is going up the slope or down the slope.

How many styles of putts would be tested? Cale's hyzer putts that slant into the basket, Ricky's blasts, loft putts from outside the circle?

After we have the standards, would designers be allowed to place obstacles where they interfere with the lines that the machine tested?

I'm replying to Steve's post because I want to comment on a couple of his ideas. For the most part, it shouldn't matter what disc you use. If the argument is that some baskets are going to catch some kinds of discs better than others, that's some interesting engineering. The physical characteristics of the disc should give the same changes for each basket design. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do the experiment, just that I'd be surprised if you saw a statistically significant result.

Wind - again, and even more so. Wind outcomes should affect each basket the same.

Styles of putting - the best way to get at this is to look at angles of approach, and spin on the disc. No matter what style you use, the disc leaves your hand approaching the basket on a trajectory with a certain amount of spin. You'd want to get a measure of trajectories and spin that includes all types seen in play and then experiment through that full range.

Of course, your throwing machine has to be on a stand (preferably one that can be rotated side to side) and has to have a rheostat so you can adjust speed and spin. I've thought a modified pitching machine might work. It has two wheels, and you can adjust the speed of each allowing different release speeds, and different torque. You'd have to build a release plate that the disc can be loaded on.

To random outcomes. First experiment. Let's go to a Mach V because it offers the most complaints about fluky outcomes. Typically, what I see called random or fluky is a left center put that cuts through the chains. The experiment starts at 15 feet. Set your release speed at 10 miles per hour. Put on a rotation that is somewhere around the middle of what you see in real play. Throw disc. What happens? If, the basket is "random," you're going to expect to get different outcomes with each throw. Some fall in, some pass through, some fall inwards, some fall outwards. Remember, the chains will move some throw to throw. I'm guessing that if the basket is in good shape, for the most part, that will be small.

You can adjust your delivery speed up and down. I'm gonna guess (this is for fun, see below) there's a break point. That is, my hypothesis is that there will be a speed breakpoint. Putts delivered at speeds below X will stay in, putts above speed X will pass through. That point may be fairly discreet. That is, above X, you might see 90% or 80% pass through, and below it 10% pass through. More likely, what your going to see is, say it Steve, a curve. With pass throughs increasing with speed.

Back to random. That isn't random. The basket has physical parameters. At a certain speed, you begin to challenge the physical ability of the basket to catch. The more speed, the more pass throughs. If it is random, you're not going to have the curve I just described. You're going to have a random distribution of pass throughs that is not speed dependent.

Now we roll out a Veteran. I have a Veteran in mind because I just watched the Waco Charity. Set up the same experiment. Aim for the same spot, Center, just left off the pole (you'd want to actually have a ruler to make sure distances are accurate). Repeat. Now you can compare the two baskets.

Now I could write different experiments until your sicker of reading this than you already are. But I'm not going to do that.

What I'm going to hypothesize is that the notion of random outcomes will be gone. You're going to find that baskets have catching areas, sweet spots, and they vary from basket to basket. Said sweet spots will vary in their sweetness. You're going to find that forward speed and spin impact sweet spots and the ability of baskets to catch discs.

I'd argue that the PDGA should define what a basket is by the range of speed and spin used by the most successful pros. Not Nikko! Ricky and Paul, and of course others, rarely have spit outs. That's because they've learned the physical abilities of baskets to catch discs, and adjusted to them. Nikko doesn't seem to want to do this. Don't ask me why. Once you've defined that, then you define what a "good" basket is. Then producers have to meet that standard. You're going to find out that there are already a number of baskets that do this, and maybe some that don't.
 
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The surface of a ball golf green can change over the course of the day, forcing players to adjust their putting mechanics.
Different basket configurations offer a very similar comparison.

GO OUT AND PRACTICE ON A MACH AND YOU WILL BE ABLE TO PUTT BETTER ON THEM.
 
Oh and disc golf courses and/or tournaments aren't going to change baskets because YOU can't putt on them/don't like them.

It's on the player to adjust to the course they're playing.
 

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