Am Worlds 2013: Only 2 slots in FJx divisions?

[12StonesScott]

Seriously? The online registration page has notes that FJ2 and FJ3 are both filled. Didn't think much about it until I went and looked at the actual registration list. Two girls in each of those divisions. That's it. Two. Granted, the girls divisions never have a large field (and no more than one in each in Rochester), but that's still pretty insulting to set it up that way. Why even offer a division in a tournament if you're only going to have two spaces available? Seems a bit cold to send out 15+ invitations for 4 spots.

Situation's not much better for adult women -- only 8 FM1 spots, already filled with one on the wait list. I'm guessing since FG1 has 5 registered and isn't full yet that there's also 8 slots in that division. There were 14 and 13 in the field respectively in Charlotte. I'm hoping that at least if FG1 doesn't fill they'll open up more slots in FJ2/3, as I can think of at least 3 more girls that I would imagine might be expecting to play.

I get that they want to maximize the opportunities for people who really do want to play, and that protecting slots for female players that may not be used might keep one of the other divisions from filling, but realistically the way pools/course assignments work it's not going to really change anything for MA1/MM1 if they have 4 slots each rather than 2 for FJ2/3. Having only two in each does pretty clearly say "Girls Keep Out", though.

Looks like they seriously understimated interest in MS1 also -- at least 6 or 7 guys on the waitlist there also.

 

[_MTL_]

I can't speak for this event, but I promise you these numbers for division caps aren't just picked from thin air. Without knowledge of the situation, I can tell you there are tons and tons of things they go into planning with numbers. For example, just as it's not appropriate for a 13 year old girl to play a 8,000 foot course, it's not appropriate for the advanced men to play a 4,000 foot course. So you might have only so much room to make sure courses are appropriate for competition based on the division.

And there is no right way to get these things. For US Masters this year, we made caps per division for about 10 reasons - but the basics were to make sure a few things happened to make sure each player got the best test of skill and best experience. Because of that, we have had to cap divisions.

What you will hear from players about our caps:
"Why are you locking people out when there are spots left in the event? Why do you think it's fair to let pros have spots when ams want to play?"

What you won't hear is how the players had 3 months to sign up and each division cap had more spots than the average and highest number of players from the last 3 years of the event.

There is ALWAYS a reasonable explanation for these things - it took me about a month to make a schedule with just 4 pools and three courses for US Masters. I can't imagine the challenge of worlds. And if they did the half the research and planning I did, they have thought above and beyond the reasoning for each cap.

 

[12StonesScott]

I can't speak for this event, but I promise you these numbers for division caps aren't just picked from thin air. Without knowledge of the situation, I can tell you there are tons and tons of things they go into planning with numbers. For example, just as it's not appropriate for a 13 year old girl to play a 8,000 foot course, it's not appropriate for the advanced men to play a 4,000 foot course. So you might have only so much room to make sure courses are appropriate for competition based on the division.

And there is no right way to get these things. For US Masters this year, we made caps per division for about 10 reasons - but the basics were to make sure a few things happened to make sure each player got the best test of skill and best experience. Because of that, we have had to cap divisions.

What you will hear from players about our caps:
"Why are you locking people out when there are spots left in the event? Why do you think it's fair to let pros have spots when ams want to play?"

What you won't hear is how the players had 3 months to sign up and each division cap had more spots than the average and highest number of players from the last 3 years of the event.

There is ALWAYS a reasonable explanation for these things - it took me about a month to make a schedule with just 4 pools and three courses for US Masters. I can't imagine the challenge of worlds. And if they did the half the research and planning I did, they have thought above and beyond the reasoning for each cap.

I get all that -- I really do. I know what a nightmare scheduling all of that is, how impossible it is to please everyone, etc. But really, if you're only going to allow 8 slots total for junior girls, then just have a single division. Or <=19 and <=13 (essentially, FJ1/2 and FJ3/4). Given the way pools/schedules have been done for the two prior Am/Jr Worlds I've been to, that ought to still work while (a) not shutting out any FJ2 or FJ3 competitor who really wants to play and (b) not sending the message that female competitors are a nuisance you'd rather not deal with or (c) having two-player divisions.

It's not personal for me -- I don't have dog (you should pardon the expression) in this fight. My daughters don't really play, and I haven't even decided if my son and I will make the trip. But I hate anything that discourages any female or junior competitors, particularly at what is, in many respects, more a disc golf family reunion than a serious competition in many divisions.

 

[Cgkdisc]

It was tough this year. We had to proportionately ramp down the division sizes from Charlotte about 200 players from 705 to 504. We used percentages and historical entries to set the initial caps. But most divisions are going to be stressed with players not getting in either before open registration or by the time the event happens.

 

[LegoRules]

It looks like there are only 6 spots for FG1, and chances are that division will fill as well. There are now three FM1s on the wait list. If I had not bumped up to FG1 this year I would be on that wait list myself right now. I played in Am Worlds last year, and it was so amazing to have see so many ladies taking part. Women's disc golf is exploding right now, and it is too bad the caps on the Jrs and age protected women's divisions seem rather low.

Cindy

Seriously? The online registration page has notes that FJ2 and FJ3 are both filled. Didn't think much about it until I went and looked at the actual registration list. Two girls in each of those divisions. That's it. Two. Granted, the girls divisions never have a large field (and no more than one in each in Rochester), but that's still pretty insulting to set it up that way. Why even offer a division in a tournament if you're only going to have two spaces available? Seems a bit cold to send out 15+ invitations for 4 spots.

Situation's not much better for adult women -- only 8 FM1 spots, already filled with one on the wait list. I'm guessing since FG1 has 5 registered and isn't full yet that there's also 8 slots in that division. There were 14 and 13 in the field respectively in Charlotte. I'm hoping that at least if FG1 doesn't fill they'll open up more slots in FJ2/3, as I can think of at least 3 more girls that I would imagine might be expecting to play.

I get that they want to maximize the opportunities for people who really do want to play, and that protecting slots for female players that may not be used might keep one of the other divisions from filling, but realistically the way pools/course assignments work it's not going to really change anything for MA1/MM1 if they have 4 slots each rather than 2 for FJ2/3. Having only two in each does pretty clearly say "Girls Keep Out", though.

Looks like they seriously understimated interest in MS1 also -- at least 6 or 7 guys on the waitlist there also.

 

[scarpfish]

It would be neat in due time that Jr. Worlds had its own event, so stuff like this didn't have to happen, but that day is a ways off yet.

 

[JC17393]

It looks like there are only 6 spots for FG1, and chances are that division will fill as well. There are now three FM1s on the wait list. If I had not bumped up to FG1 this year I would be on that wait list myself right now. I played in Am Worlds last year, and it was so amazing to have see so many ladies taking part. Women's disc golf is exploding right now, and it is too bad the caps on the Jrs and age protected women's divisions seem rather low.

Cindy

I would imagine that the caps were chosen based on some kind of proportionality, and the proportion is relatively equal across all divisions. They invite more players than they have place for in every division, but it wouldn't necessarily be fair to make room for, say, 80% of invited FM1 players but only 40% of MA1 players, even if 80% instead of 40% only bumps the FM1 field up by 2-3 players. (note: all numbers cited I pulled out of my rear end)

 

[Cgkdisc]

They tried a separate Junior Worlds in Ontario one or two years but it didn't work out. May have been too soon to try it. Our goal for AW2014 is to see if we can develop it to have the largest Junior turnout ever with 8 courses available for everyone.

 

[tistoude]

It would be neat in due time that Jr. Worlds had its own event, so stuff like this didn't have to happen, but that day is a ways off yet.

That would be a great event. I would love to see this happen.

 

[mashnut]

They tried a separate Junior Worlds in Ontario one or two years but it didn't work out. May have been too soon to try it. Our goal for AW2014 is to see if we can develop it to have the largest Junior turnout ever with 8 courses available for everyone.

I wonder if some of the lack of turnout was due to the need for passports for US kids to get up there, a lot of younger people don't have them.

 

[Cgkdisc]

No passports required then. London, Ontario in 2003. I think the issue was that many parents also play in general and in Am Worlds. So it was inconvenient for many to take the vacation days and budget for two separate events in different locations.

 

[biscoe]

2 player limit on a division competing for a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP...only in the pdga.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Two is still better than none. Remember at one time there were only two guys alive who qualified for Legends and Sylvia has had a division of one for many years so she had to play younger.

 

[biscoe]

i disagree that 2 is better than none.

 

[Cgkdisc]

That's because you're not involved running a membership org that tries to include all member divisions at least at Worlds however small.

 

[12StonesScott]

Yeah, I don't see a separate Jr Worlds happening successfully for a very long time -- most parents of junior disc golfers (especially female juniors) are themselves disc golfers, and in a lot of cases would potentially be playing Worlds also, so as Chuck says taking two full weeks off just isn't happening for most of us. I've been there as a non-playing parent twice, but I'm definitely in the minority. Thinking about it, I'm realizing that at least three of the FJs I'd have expected to be at Worlds this year probably won't be because they have parents playing Pro Worlds.

Nevertheless, I don't think we can collectively claim to be serious about increasing the participation of juniors and female players and at the same time effectively shut out most of them from the one opportunity they might have all year to play in a competitive event with other players of the same age/sex. If having 16 slots for FJ1-4 and 20 for the age-protected women's divisions available at least through the initial invitee registration period (i.e., until May 3 this year) isn't viable, we need to figure out a better approach. That's only 7% of the total field size.

As far as I can tell, there's also been no public information about the field size cap for any of the divisions communicated. At the very least, letting the invitees in each division know how many slots are available would give them a fighting chance -- I can almost guarantee there are FJ players out there right now who haven't looked at the online registration page to find out that they're already out of luck, thinking that they have at least until May 3rd.

Question for you, Chuck: has the field size been capped at only two players for the FJ divisions before?

 

[biscoe]

amen to that. (chuck's comment)

what would've been the harm of allowing enough players in these tiny divisions to at least make up one scorecards worth of players and to fall within the ORG's recommendations for minimum field size per division for all of it's lesser events? 4 advanced players who did not qualify on points wouldn't be able to get in???

 

[spikodelhyzer]

"I am the world champion. I beat her"

/points to only other girl in division.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There's been no need for caps in most divisions until recently. We had one of our largest Am/Jr fields in history last year where several divisions capped out and we were able to make some accommodations for more players in some divisions. It was unfortunate we couldn't capitalize on this momentum where this year we'll have a much smaller capped field. But that bid was approved before the breakout Worlds in Charlotte. It does make a Worlds invite and getting in more valuable as it should have been a longer time ago. And from what we know about GBO, they should do a great job.

From a philosophical standpoint, I think it's been a bonus to have World Championships for kids under 13. I can't think of many individual sports that host World Championships for kids under teen age. Even though teenagers participate in gymnastics, swimming, diving and skating at the Olympics, I think they all have to be some minimum age maybe at least 14?

So along Biscoe's lines, my thought would be that perhaps we should consider not offering those divisions MFJ34 initially with a minimum age of 14 for MFJ2 and only offer the younger ones if there's room. Of course that complicates things for participating parents not knowing whether they can play or need to caddy. Perhaps we should really be getting enough young players for metro and state championships before offering National and World titles for this age level.

 

[LegoRules]

Well said! Why not at least cap at even cards, and if they do not fill then move those spots to other divisions that have waiting list. Capping the Jr. Girls at 2 & the FG1s at 6 is disappointing give us a chance to have full cards at least.

I also agree that in would have been nice if the field caps would have been posted somewhere.

Cindy

Yeah, I don't see a separate Jr Worlds happening successfully for a very long time -- most parents of junior disc golfers (especially female juniors) are themselves disc golfers, and in a lot of cases would potentially be playing Worlds also, so as Chuck says taking two full weeks off just isn't happening for most of us. I've been there as a non-playing parent twice, but I'm definitely in the minority. Thinking about it, I'm realizing that at least three of the FJs I'd have expected to be at Worlds this year probably won't be because they have parents playing Pro Worlds.

Nevertheless, I don't think we can collectively claim to be serious about increasing the participation of juniors and female players and at the same time effectively shut out most of them from the one opportunity they might have all year to play in a competitive event with other players of the same age/sex. If having 16 slots for FJ1-4 and 20 for the age-protected women's divisions available at least through the initial invitee registration period (i.e., until May 3 this year) isn't viable, we need to figure out a better approach. That's only 7% of the total field size.

As far as I can tell, there's also been no public information about the field size cap for any of the divisions communicated. At the very least, letting the invitees in each division know how many slots are available would give them a fighting chance -- I can almost guarantee there are FJ players out there right now who haven't looked at the online registration page to find out that they're already out of luck, thinking that they have at least until May 3rd.

Question for you, Chuck: has the field size been capped at only two players for the FJ divisions before?