Are you an a-hole if u block a bad designer

[Yank it Right]

Do you have a person in your area who thinks they can design courses but they can't. What would be a good way to handle this. He already ruined one area course on redesign. Luckily we were able to get in front of him on the latest course and put in a championship course. Unfortunately and fortunately we have two new parks looking to build courses. The person seems to have no job so he has tons of time. What's the best way to make sure he doesn't design anymore without being a dick

 

[BirdieMachine]

Tell him he sucks at designing courses and to quit. Maybe Facebook him, email or face to face. Really its the best thing for everyone elses sake not to have bad designed courses.

 

[TrippinBill]

You could always try talking to him about it.

 

[joecoin]

Show the decision makers for the new courses how crappy his existing course is, then show them your championship course. Make them go to both places, make them speak with people who have played both courses. If these are publicly funded courses, the decision makers have a stewardship obligation to the public to spend the money wisely.

 

[Golden Tuna]

When dealing with customers, calling attention to another person/competitor's inadequacies really only serves to take credibility away from the entire industry (regardless of industry) You should never bad mouth a competitor to a customer, but thats just sales 101.

The best thing to do is meet with him, have a discussion and see if he would like to be "part of the team" that designs one or both of the courses. Then, when he has a bad idea just let him know that he was out-voted by the rest of the team and that you're going a different direction.

Better to keep him as an ally than turn him into an enemy

 

[Yank it Right]

Gotcha on the team thing just not real good dealing with him. And while I've designed some courses I'm not doing any more for free. I personally don't want to design at least one of the courses. The talking thing has been done. I personally have spoken to him about what I feel where some design flaws. Some of it is personal philosophy and part is unacceptable standards as far as tee pads, and course completeness. He was some what part of a team in that we let him show up and tried to teach him some design ideas and show him some of hocks articles etc... But he seems to lack intelligence. Also he whined about not being on course sign as designer when only the lead designer is in the sign. Oh we'll really I don't want to battle about it, but I want quality courses no matter the skill level they are intended for

 

[joecoin]

When dealing with customers, calling attention to another person/competitor's inadequacies really only serves to take credibility away from the entire industry (regardless of industry) You should never bad mouth a competitor to a customer, but thats just sales 101.

The best thing to do is meet with him, have a discussion and see if he would like to be "part of the team" that designs one or both of the courses. Then, when he has a bad idea just let him know that he was out-voted by the rest of the team and that you're going a different direction.

Better to keep him as an ally than turn him into an enemy

When I suggested taking the decision makers to the course designed by the guy with the lesser talent, I didn't mean point out the flaws directly, but to just show the DM's the two different courses and let them draw their own conclusions. Sorry I was not clear on that point. I've been in sales for 35 years.I never bad mouth a competitor to a customer, but I always attempt to show the customer the differences between them and us so they can draw their own conclusions.

 

[ZAMson]

Disc Golf progress is all about trying to do something well before an overly enthusiastic unemployed drunk does it horribly because they love the sport.

 

[disc qualified]

Mention your concerns to those who want the course built. Have them ask for detailed plans for the course design. Include an estimate for materials and labor costs. If his plans can stand side by side with other plans than he deserves a shot, but if his coffee stained crayon drawings are low on information and full of straight lines and an X for the basket, maybe it will become obvious that he has no business designing a course.

 

[Old Dog]

Mention your concerns to those who want the course built. Have them ask for detailed plans for the course design. Include an estimate for materials and labor costs. If his plans can stand side by side with other plans than he deserves a shot, but if his coffee stained crayon drawings are low on information and full of straight lines and an X for the basket, maybe it will become obvious that he has no business designing a course.

This. ^^

If he's as poor a designer as you say he is he is probably a poor organizer, planner and sales person as well. The trick would be for your group or designer to present their own professional looking detailed plans, drawings, with facts and figures to the parks dept(s). They should be able to determine pretty quickly who knows what they are doing and who the immature is.

 

[hawk12]

This. ^^

If he's as poor a designer as you say he is he is probably a poor organizer, planner and sales person as well. The trick would be for your group or designer to present their own professional looking detailed plans, drawings, with facts and figures to the parks dept(s). They should be able to determine pretty quickly who knows what they are doing and who the immature is.

I agree with this ^^
Have a local designer that knows his stuff put in a proposal. If you have to do it yourself even though you don't really want to 'donate' any more time, then that's what you must do. I give lots of my time, and hope to one day make some money designing courses; so I learn, learn, read, adapt, and make a cohesive plan for a course before I go walk the land, walk the land, and walk the land. If you don't want to put in the work, then you can;t really complain about the results.
If you want to help out this 'weaker' designer, then go play his course with him and point out some of the things that might've been done differently. Maybe a light will go off, maybe there's just not enough hamster power to turn the wheel in his head...

Not much else you can do, its hard to tell someone that they are "voluntering wrong"... only thing to do is try to educate in a nice manner and hope some of it sitcks.

 

[Nemmers]

If you want to help out this 'weaker' designer, then go play his course with him and point out some of the things that might've been done differently. Maybe a light will go off, maybe there's just not enough hamster power to turn the wheel in his head...

^^^

Yep.

The best weapon against ineptitude and inefficiency is information. Pretend he's from Missouri. Ask him to play a round and show him why his design is sub-standard. Not in a condescending manner, but just as a heads-up. And be sure to come prepared with examples of what would have been better for that particular hole. You know, stuff he himself should have considered prior to laying the foundation.

Now, he may be one of those guys who can't admit when he's wrong and if that's the case then, hey....you tried. The point was made earlier about not discouraging volunteers and that's true; however, if they're worth their salt they'll accept constructive criticism and learn from it rather than shrugging it off as meaningless complaining.

Worst case scenario: You have a complete moron who's willing to spend his own time and money designing sub-par courses. More disc golf locales still sounds like a win-win to me.

 

[BionicRib]

Don't get in a battle with him/them while dealing with the park/landowner.........it won't end well. Even if you are right, it will make the landowner look at disc golf in a light it shouldn't be seen in.

Get someone with experience to come up with a proposal that includes all costs and design options that appease the landowners needs.......(not the local player needs). Make sure all options are discussed about the "potential" of the land and let the landowner decide. If the "crappy designer" is involved in any meetings ask a lot of loaded questions, more than likely he/she will sink there own ship. If it doesn't work out........swallow hard and move on to the next project.

Try talking with the designer beforehand.....be critical, but have legitimate reasons why you have issues with their design.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Having done this several times, better to ask the designer to first explain why he did what he did on each hole (essentially defend the design from you asking questions) rather than tell him what he did wrong or how to do it better. Sometimes there are good reasons why things were done a certain way, even if it's unsettling, most common being some restrictions placed on him by the Park Dept.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

... Sometimes there are good reasons why things were done a certain way, even if it's unsettling, most common being some restrictions placed on him by the Park Dept.

^this comes to mind for me chuck-- not your style at all and kinda scary shot if you are no good or oblivious to the surrounding world.

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's not what it looked like when it was designed. I think I may have suggested moving this long tee to the other side of the park road. I agree it got dicier since the parking lot and road were modified and upgraded, maybe before your time, so you've only seen it this way. That's why Park Depts need to keep in contact with their original designer over the years because things are likely to need tweaking due to park infrastructure changes like this or more commonly, just growth or loss of trees setting up reasons for design tweaks.

 

[BionicRib]

Sometimes there are good reasons why things were done a certain way, even if it's unsettling, most common being some restrictions placed on him by the Park Dept.

Agreed, but I think this raises the question......What kind of restrictions are reasonable for the design to progress and when is it time to just say no? It can be a touchy situation sometimes and I think a lot of designers have different opinions about that question. Some designers do things that IMO are flat out inexcusable and then proceed to blame the parks department or they do those things so a course can simply be in the ground instead of no course. IMO when these restrictions put the safety of the player,property or casual park goers it is imperative that the designer stand their ground.

If the restrictions are a matter of why a hole wasn't longer, or why this hill wasn't used etc etc. Then IMO the designer can justify the decisions they made........Unfortunately a lot of reviewers (especially on this site) don't consider these "restrictions".......Which is one of the biggest issues I have with this site.

The moral of my rant is that I agree with Chuck that if you have a problem with a design/designer you should atleast give them a chance to defend why they did what they did. Only after this can you truly formulate an opinion on the flaws that you consider flaws

 

[giles]

Agreed, but I think this raises the question......What kind of restrictions are reasonable for the design to progress and when is it time to just say no? It can be a touchy situation sometimes and I think a lot of designers have different opinions about that question. Some designers do things that IMO are flat out inexcusable and then proceed to blame the parks department or they do those things so a course can simply be in the ground instead of no course. IMO when these restrictions put the safety of the player,property or casual park goers it is imperative that the designer stand their ground.

If the restrictions are a matter of why a hole wasn't longer, or why this hill wasn't used etc etc. Then IMO the designer can justify the decisions they made........Unfortunately a lot of reviewers (especially on this site) don't consider these "restrictions".......Which is one of the biggest issues I have with this site.

The moral of my rant is that I agree with Chuck that if you have a problem with a design/designer you should atleast give them a chance to defend why they did what they did. Only after this can you truly formulate an opinion on the flaws that you consider flaws

Unless it changed the designer could offer a rebuttal to a review.

 

[BionicRib]

Unless it changed the designer could offer a rebuttal to a review.

A lot of designers don't even know this site exists, but I do see your point, that is a good feature that was added and was desperately needed.

 

[schnelle]

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