Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[johnrhouck]

well said, this is what ive been trying to tell people but it never sinks in :clap:

Thanks.

 

[Dave242]

That's a really important question, Mub. My bottom line is that I think disc golf is more enjoyable when the punishment fits the crime.

But, here's the rub: who determines what is the appropriate punishment for a given crime?

I like to think that recovery for par is a good punishment for a small error (any course even a wide open course provides that) so we can toss that out for design purposes in most cases (thinning very dense underbrush is an exception). A larger error should have a good chance at a bogey and a larger one than that should result in a bogey for sure and possibly/probably worse.

One thing I think a lot of people overlook is that if a course is designed for players above one's skill level, your small error is actually a much bigger error for the more skilled target player. Better players have better accuracy.

.....And, you see this in reverse with all the complaining by top players who are conditioned by playing on courses that are well below their level. So, when they play wooded Gold level courses (or even Blue sometimes), the volume and frequency of whining goes through the roof (think Worlds 2012).

 

[iacas]

For example, you can make a small mistake in ball golf and wind up in slightly taller grass or maybe in a sand trap. But you can fix it by making a great shot. You have the opportunity to redeem yourself completely and still get a par or even birdie. In disc golf, there are still many situations (like the one you mention) where you're in the rough with no good options. One little mistake, and even par is out the window.

It's often said in golf that some of the most exciting shots are recovery shots. A player is in the rough, blocked out by trees, and has to play a creative recovery shot. When they pull it off, it's thrilling. When they don't, that's thrilling too.

Phil Mickelson hitting between two trees (wasn't as hard as it looks) at Augusta National the last time he won. Disc Golfer Bubba Watson playing a big hook on #10 in the playoffs at the 2012 Masters. Both "recovery" shots and VERY exciting because the punishment fit the crime - they were penalized, but able to reverse the penalty with a spectacular shot.

The most boring shot in golf is the pitch-out. The same is likely true in disc golf.

 

[Peterb]

one might point out that it is the golfer's decision to pitch out or not. Often we get greedy believing that we can make a ridiculously beautiful shot out of the rough that can help us save a par. This can lead to the 3 stroke 'penalty' that John refers to. However, how many times have you thrown a terrible tee shot, then thought to yourself, well, if I just pitch out, I can most likely take a 4 (or a bogey if par is > 3) and escape with minimal damage. I tend to try and think that I can do better than that, and will opt for the flex out forehand through that tiny window hoping to save my par.

 

[johnrhouck]

It's often said in golf that some of the most exciting shots are recovery shots. A player is in the rough, blocked out by trees, and has to play a creative recovery shot. When they pull it off, it's thrilling. When they don't, that's thrilling too.

Phil Mickelson hitting between two trees (wasn't as hard as it looks) at Augusta National the last time he won. Disc Golfer Bubba Watson playing a big hook on #10 in the playoffs at the 2012 Masters. Both "recovery" shots and VERY exciting because the punishment fit the crime - they were penalized, but able to reverse the penalty with a spectacular shot.

The most boring shot in golf is the pitch-out. The same is likely true in disc golf.

Iacas, you've really nailed it. Here's how I put it in this article, specifically in regards to sand traps:

"But if you're playing ball golf, and you're in a sand trap 30 yards from the pin, you've almost certainly got a challenging but makeable shot. If you exhibit great skill, you can earn a great reward. Some of the most memorable shots in the history of golf have been miraculous recoveries from the sand. The drama can be off the charts when someone is fighting to take or hold the lead, tries a risky approach to the green, and winds up in a sand trap. At that point, everyone watching knows that the next shot could end in triumph or tragedy.

It all comes down to two words: recovery shot."

 

[johnrhouck]

But, here's the rub: who determines what is the appropriate punishment for a given crime?

I like to think that recovery for par is a good punishment for a small error (any course even a wide open course provides that) so we can toss that out for design purposes in most cases (thinning very dense underbrush is an exception). A larger error should have a good chance at a bogey and a larger one than that should result in a bogey for sure and possibly/probably worse.

One thing I think a lot of people overlook is that if a course is designed for players above one's skill level, your small error is actually a much bigger error for the more skilled target player. Better players have better accuracy.

.....And, you see this in reverse with all the complaining by top players who are conditioned by playing on courses that are well below their level. So, when they play wooded Gold level courses (or even Blue sometimes), the volume and frequency of whining goes through the roof (think Worlds 2012).

Very well said, Dave. Two things: I think that, just as there are easier holes harder holes on a well-balanced course, there should be less punitive holes and more punitive holes.

As for 2012 worlds, I think there may have been more to the whining than just the punishment factor. Of course, for some people, any opportunity to whine is welcomed..

 

[johnrhouck]

I tend to try and think that I can do better than that, and will opt for the flex out forehand through that tiny window hoping to save my par.

Very, very important point, Peter. I just want to make sure that you're tempted to try a makeable shot. If your window is so small that you try a Hail Mary just because it's more fun than pitching out, the course isn't giving you a strategic option based on risk and challenge. It's just an option for fun or no fun.

 

[RKelly]

Very well said, Dave. Two things: I think that, just as there are easier holes harder holes on a well-balanced course, there should be less punitive holes and more punitive holes.

As for 2012 worlds, I think there may have been more to the whining than just the punishment factor. Of course, for some people, any opportunity to whine is welcomed..

What else were they whining about?

 

[RKelly]

^ Besides not playing as well as they hoped.

 

[JimDK27]

Hi, John! I'm designing a private 9 hole course on some family land and it is mostly open with a few interesting features that I would like to include. However, to do this I have what I feel like others may view as long walks from a hole to the next tee area. I was wondering if there a distance you feel is too long for this situation? It is about a football field worth of zig-zagging down a hill and around another tee (which is for the previous hole).

If anyone else has an answer to my question, feel free to share it. I still need some input on this.

 

[sloppydisc]

IMO long walks are not a big deal as long as the paths are cleared and well marked. Sometimes a long walk is better than a crappy filler hole. I've had some long walks, gotten to the next pad and thought, yeah I get it. That works. Plus if it a private course on your land, screw what others think.

Can you make the down hill walk another short hole, or is that tee pad in the way? Maybe some thing to plan for.

 

[johnrhouck]

Hi, John! I'm designing a private 9 hole course on some family land and it is mostly open with a few interesting features that I would like to include. However, to do this I have what I feel like others may view as long walks from a hole to the next tee area. I was wondering if there a distance you feel is too long for this situation? It is about a football field worth of zig-zagging down a hill and around another tee (which is for the previous hole).

Jim, I'm sorry I never got to this. Over the years, I've made plenty of courses that include walks between holes of 100 yards or more. I've done enough that some people have said it's one of my signature features. (Pretty sure they didn't mean it in a nice way.)

I absolutely value a better hole over a short walk. Some people don't. There are those who think that flow and/or short walks are much more important than having great holes. That's fine; we just disagree.

In any case like this, you need to decide if what you're sacrificing justifies what you're gaining. And you need to accept ahead of time that, whatever you choose, some players will be OK with it (like my new friend Mr. Sloppy), and some players will be disappointed.

In your particular case, you mentioned walking around the previous tee. That's a big psychological hurdle to get over. Players like to feel that they're moving forward, not backward. Unless it's very clear why you had to do it, and the unless the two holes involved are really special, I would go back to the drawing board and see if you can find another way to make it work.

 

[Sadjo]

I helped with a design of a course back in 2009. The course is on private land and the owner said we couldn't remove any trees and all baskets needed to be at least 20' from the nearest tree.

The property is larger with some interesting feature and a lake. To get from the nearest parking to the lake and interesing features required some really bland holes or long walks. We opted for the long walks.

If he would allow to have baskets closer to tree and for some trees to be removed, the design would have worked better but its still on of the prettiest courses anywhere.

 

[superium]

Hey John, just curious whats your honest opinion on the courses in the Buffalo, NY area. Knowing you once resided in the area, I wanna know what improvments the courses could use other than the desperate need of concrete tpads.
Thanks, Mark

 

[texhop58]

john, my hometown has just got approval to build a 9 hole. I have floated the idea of an island hole out. After reading opinions on this site. I see people seem to be against them. I've seen a couple and like the idea of making someone play technical. Do you think it is a good idea to install one, if its done nicley. We have talked about "rocking" off the island and puttng a couple of trees on the island. Making it about a 185ish shot

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey John, just curious whats your honest opinion on the courses in the Buffalo, NY area. Knowing you once resided in the area, I wanna know what improvments the courses could use other than the desperate need of concrete tpads.
Thanks, Mark

Hi, Mark. I left Buffalo for good after college, and that was a long time ago. Most of my visits have been over Christmas -- not the best time for disc golf. So I really don't know much about the Buffalo-area courses, other than Beaver Island. I've walked 2-3 others, but I've never played any, other than the one in Tonawanda in about 1980, and Joseph Davis once or twice.

I did work with Paul Stevens a bit on the redesign of Beaver Island, so there are some holes there I had some input on.

Other than that, all I can say is that I think Chestnut Ridge has (or maybe had) one of the most dangerous holes I've ever seen, and I mentioned it to Doug shortly after the course went in.

If there are courses that need concrete tee pads, that would obviously be a good start. Other than that, I can't really tell you much. Maybe one of these years I'll get a chance to play some more courses up there.

 

[jljjdye]

Hey John, I live in Aubrey Tx. I have a friend that has a 9 hole course on his property. Did you by chance design and install this course. I remember him saying that the guy that designed it is the same one that designed Rockwall.

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey John, I live in Aubrey Tx. I have a friend that has a 9 hole course on his property. Did you by chance design and install this course. I remember him saying that the guy that designed it is the same one that designed Rockwall.

Hmm. I am the guy who designed Rockwall, but I've never designed a course in Aubrey. Does your friend maybe live somewhere else? I have done a 9-holer on private property, but it's in central Texas. Not sure what to tell you...

 

[smook]

I posted this earlier on the forums and was told that here might be a good place to post as well


I am currently in the process of getting a disc golf course in the southern san diego area. I have scoped out an area that i believe would be nice (what do i know). But i have emailed the city and they told me that the area was dedicated open space and i would have to work around the regulations of the MHPA. I looked up the MHPA and they state that in dedicated open space there may be low impact activities such as hiking, biking, equestrian (really? horses are low impact?) , etc. Have any of you guys built courses on low impact lands? How can I work around this? Any ideas on my disc golf course progression or next steps is appriciated! Thanks.

 

[77586]

Hey John, I heard awhile back that you were going to design a course in Kemah. Is this happening? I'm very interested as it would be my new home course. Thanks!