Sports_Fan_Stan
Bogey Member
Very interesting how that article refers to the traditions in ball/stick golf. I imagine that Mr. Houck has taken a bunch of static over the years for using BG concepts in DG course design. Enjoyed the article, thanks!!!
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Very interesting how that article refers to the traditions in ball/stick golf. I imagine that Mr. Houck has taken a bunch of static over the years for using BG concepts in DG course design. Enjoyed the article, thanks!!!
HouckDesign
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We would welcome the opportunity to design in PA. Please send us an email from our website and we will see what we can do to get you a HouckDesign course in Pottstown. In fact, I'm originally from PA. Grew up outside Pittsburgh! Beautiful country!
Dee
It's funny how what is tradition in BG is considered progessive or even radical in DG. John is one of those who gets it. Don't be skeered y'all.
Great article (dumb holes). But it made me think...
I recently got to shadow the pro women at the Atlanta Open and yes, a lot of holes do turn out to be dumb for them but I also noticed that, like you said, they are used to long approaches and putts. I would dare say that save for the very top of male pros, these women are better, leaps and bounds better, then the men with their approaches and putts. (Certainly better than their "equally" rated male counterparts.)
If your idea of different tees actually caught on would it help or hurt their game? Surely their scores would lower and maybe we would see a 1000 rated woman...but would they be better golfers?
Personally I think they should have their own rating system as the equalizer...maybe because we do not have a lot of 600+ foot holes here though.
I recently got to shadow the pro women at the Atlanta Open and yes, a lot of holes do turn out to be dumb for them but I also noticed that, like you said, they are used to long approaches and putts. I would dare say that save for the very top of male pros, these women are better, leaps and bounds better, then the men with their approaches and putts. (Certainly better than their "equally" rated male counterparts.)
If your idea of different tees actually caught on would it help or hurt their game? Surely their scores would lower and maybe we would see a 1000 rated woman...but would they be better golfers?
Personally I think they should have their own rating system as the equalizer...maybe because we do not have a lot of 600+ foot holes here though.
frisbeeguy
Bogey Member
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When is John going to play a PDGA event so he can get a player rating?
Whoa, JH... you've been called OUT!
(happy birthday :clap: )
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Here are some interesting stats regarding top women. At PW2007, I designed the Final 9 for the top men, basically, super gold players. The top 4 women played that same layout. On every hole, at least one or more men had a different score than the other guys. This is how John and I determine if we did a good job designing temp holes for this level. On five of these nine holes, all women had the same score. So, only four holes provided a good chance for Des, who was chasing Val, to pick up a shot.
Another study from PW2001 compared groups of Women, Masters/GM and Open Men who all averaged around a 950 rating. All groups averaged the same score on the course being evaluated which is what you would hope is the case if they average the same rating. However, the course was half open and half wooded holes. If you went hole-by-hole, the women and older guys shot a little better than the young guys in the woods. The young guys shot better than the women and older guys on the open holes. So if a course is balanced, players with similar ratings will shoot the same. If it's more open, the younger guys of the same rating will likely do a little better than the women and older guys. Just the opposite for wooded courses.
I guess that confirms it is bad design for women then if there is no scoring spread.
I really like the points made but the problem lies in the feasibility...you either have 6-7 concrete eyesores dotting the landscape per hole or you end up with 6 rutted, crappy natural tees dotting the landscape and one nice concrete pad for the gold tee that everyone ends up playing anyways...how do you fix that?
I really like the points made but the problem lies in the feasibility...you either have 6-7 concrete eyesores dotting the landscape per hole or you end up with 6 rutted, crappy natural tees dotting the landscape and one nice concrete pad for the gold tee that everyone ends up playing anyways...how do you fix that?
Sports_Fan_Stan
Bogey Member
This sure seems like the key dilemma. :wall:
If done well (flush with the ground, maybe some border and/or mulch around it) I don't think they have to be eyesores and then 3 boxes per hole could be fairly done. The question is do you have the space/time/money to do all that.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
No public course should have gold tees unless it also has at least one other set either blue or white also cemented. Most designers have the long tees on public courses set for blue level. Even if they don't know how to do that even the inexperienced ones get most of them suitable for blue level. That's where the top women fall so they usually have good tees for them in regular events. It's when there are temp set ups catering to the top guys that the differences emerge.
More women are starting to understand that having good tees for scoring chances is a good thing while others feel that it somehow makes them look bad if they play shorter tees than the men when spectators are around. The women LPGA ball golfers play shorter tees than the PGA guys but that's only obvious in one event per year since they normally have separate events.
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Hi John and Dee. I have been getting into course design out here in the bay area for the past several years. Recently, I have teamed up with some experienced designers to help with the McLaren Park (SF) design. The design has created outrage from neighbors who feel that the course will be a catastrophe on many levels. My question for you is, how do you deal with angry neighbors?
ok thank you very much. is there a case where you wouldnt want to have a specialized basket? i mean like on an island or an elevated basket.
How is your last name pronounced?
How-k
Who-k
Ho-uck
Hook
Huck
Hawk
Hoke
I've heard it pronounce many different ways but have never been sure what's correct.
How-k
Who-k
Ho-uck
Hook
Huck
Hawk
Hoke
I've heard it pronounce many different ways but have never been sure what's correct.
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- 8,799
Alright, I guess that explains it...
Great job on the tee-signs, btw...definitely the most accurate and to-scale ones I've seen...:clap:
I am a 50 year old man and I never play gold tees. I am not long enough to enjoy them. I know lots of guys who do not automatically go to the long tees. I think sometimes it is a macho thing where guys think they have to play the long tees to prove their manhood.
me too.
HouckDesign
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HouckDesign
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Hi, everyone --
Wow -- that's a lot of questions, and just about 1,000 views in two days. I wasn't really expecting that kind of response. Thanks so much for your interest and for all the good questions. I especially want to thank Tim for the opportunity, and even more so my wonderful, brilliant, and beautiful business partner and wife Dee for making this thread happen.
Let's see what we can get to tonight...
Wow -- that's a lot of questions, and just about 1,000 views in two days. I wasn't really expecting that kind of response. Thanks so much for your interest and for all the good questions. I especially want to thank Tim for the opportunity, and even more so my wonderful, brilliant, and beautiful business partner and wife Dee for making this thread happen.
Let's see what we can get to tonight...
