Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[johnrhouck]

Speaking of things in front of the basket...

Was there every any intent to have the hay stacks in front of the basket on #12 Creekside at Selah? I lost a ce valk in there so of of course i argued that it wasn't but i thought it was a unique obstacle too.

That's a great question, and sorry they ate your disc. The hay has been there -- seasonally -- for many years. They line it up in the fall and slowly feed it to the cattle over the winter. So there's probably a lot less now than there was when you were there, and there will be even less a month from now. The hay bales do make a unique obstacle, but I am hoping that they'll be able to find somewhere else to store them next year.

Bravo on the design of each course at Selah. Both are unique and great in there own way and an incredible destination together. Selah takes the disc golf experience to another level. I have a feeling that soon it will be the top rated course on this site. Your thoughts on Selah as the #1 course vs. some of the other greats?

Thanks very much -- it is an amazing place, and the people are great. As far as where it rates, I'll just say that I've designed a lot of courses, and I think Selah is in a league of its own. But I'm hoping some of the new projects we've got coming up will measure up, too.

Thanks for all you've done for disc golf here in Texas, Circle R is one of our favorite places to visit in the summertime.

That's great. Thanks for that, too.

 

[Bultx1215]

Hey, John....Any truth to the rumor they are going to add another 9 to the backside of Boerne Lake some day soon? That would be super sweet if so.

BTW, it was great getting to talk with you last Sat at Circle R. Hope to do it again soon. Definitely in May at Worlds Biggest.

 

[donnyv]

Hi John,
I could use some insight on the redesign of a couple holes at a smaller park.

Background ~ Helping out the local parks and rec dept redesign a few holes from their original 9-hole design. We made the course a little longer since original design was pretty bunched together. We also suggested the dual (pro/am) tees which will help keep everyone happy.


Problems ~ All the concrete anchors for the baskets were already in place since last year but some are under a couple inches of water. The excess of water is due to other alterations to the land, which has made numerous wetlands throughout the park with minimum drainage (hasn't dried up since late November) and it's clay soil. We had to move a few holes around and were granted permision to utilize a couple acres near the woods by the water tower.

Question #1 ~ Water does not drain too good in the clay so there are numerous wet spots where the original design had the basket anchors.
Is it easier to dig up the concrete anchors to move them to another spot or should we just dig another hole and use fresh concrete and anchors?

Question #2 ~ Holes 6 and 7 are not the greatest design (or area) but needed to keep the some kind of flow of the course. Any suggestions to maybe change it up a little or maybe change the order of the holes to make this work or flow better?

Question #3 ~ The practice basket could be used as an alt. (not marked by sign or scorecard) Hole #10. There are a couple trees near the basket area but it shouldn't be a problem in practice. Is it okay to have the practice basket near the end of the course? There is parking nearby but hole #1 is about 450' away.

Thanks for the help. I hope I didn't confuse you.

donnyv

 

[johnrhouck]

Donny,

Thanks for your questions. Let me start with a couple questions for you.

First, is this the map of the original course or of your proposed changes?
If it's the original, which baskets are under water in wet conditions?
I don't see too many trees on the course -- do people actually throw a left-to-right shot on Hole #7, or am I missing something?

It's a little hard to tell what's going on because of the low resolution -- not sure I'm even getting the hole numbers right. Is there a better version somewhere?

 

[donnyv]

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply. I've read many of your articles and hope to play some of the many courses you've designed some day.

RE: Questions
I think we resolved some of the issues. The map above is my 9 hole redesign I've been working on but we made a few tweeks this weekend which is not shown above.

I kinda stumbled onto this project by accident when we were looking for a new course. They were about 50% into the project when they started to run into problems with the land available. I offered my assistance to help them get the course up and running. They already had the basket anchors poured and some paths brushhogged last summer but they didn't realize the drainage and heavy brush problems the area would have until it was too late.

The original planned layout by the township had most holes wide open and under 200' with the tee areas only about 20 feet from the baskets. If I showed you their original design, you would cringe. I respect all disc course designers but this course was designed by someone with little disc golf knowledge and I wanted to help them fix the layout/issues before it was too late.

So....
We are going to pour new concrete for the pins and put new anchors in, instead of digging up some of the originals that are under water.

We came up with a different design for hole #7 so it will allow better flow to #8 and #9.

We are going to put the practice basket near hole 1 afterall.

The google map I was able to use is a little out-dated so you can't see the trees as well. Unfortunately, more than half of the trees are thorn trees witch are a pain in the rear to remove and dispose of. We're just going to remove what we have to for safety reasons and use the remaining as an added challenge for the pro tees while the am tees will have clear paths and less thorn trees.

I think we'll be okay after all. It is what it is, a small 9-holer with some small challenges. It will never be a "championship caliber" course by any means but it will be a welcome addition to a course-less area.

Thanks again John. I'm working on three other courses right now so I'm sure I'll have more questions down the road. Keep up the great work and let us know if your passing thru Michigan sometime.

Thanks,
Donny

 

[jenb]

John, I read with interest your article about walking the land several times over several seasons to observe the water levels and so forth. Given that you must be working on several courses at once over a considerable amount of time, have you developed any sort of system for keeping track of your observations made over time? What has worked best for you, and what didn't work?

 

[grodney]

Saw this pic of John on the HouckDesign facebook page. I'm certain it's not photoshopped, but it looks a bit like it, doesn't it?

Here's John presenting the famous Metalmorphosis sculpture in Charlotte:

Here's John presenting the Kentucky Derby:

 

[hophead]

Hi John, we have a 52 acre park called Rock Ridge in Pittsboro NC and disc golf is listed in phase 2 of the master plan. I didn't see anything on your website about it but was told you were hired or contacted about designing it. Any truth to this and if so can you shed any details about the project? Thanks

 

[steujr]

i want to build a course

first of all i live in warren pa and the closest course are 1-2 hrs away so i would like to set one up here in warren pa where i live i have sent the city a proposal and waiting for response do u have any advice for me

tks not sure if im doing it right

 

[_MTL_]

John,

Let me pick your brain real quick.

I'm running an A Tier event and am trying to create an exciting finish for everyone as the final round occurs on a temp course and with tee times, so I have the ability to control everyones final hole.

With that in mind, the land I have picked out for 18 is stunning and I really want to get a good idea of how "mean" to get.

A few things that we know for sure about the hole.
1. It will be likely a par 5. The minimum lenth I see this hole being is 750 and the max is probably 850.
2. There is natural OB the entire way on the left and it very slightly tightens the length of the hole. 3. The ride side is gaurded the entire way with cedar trees. If you are (un)lucky enough to past those, there is an OB road to just past them. Near the tee, the distance left to right of the OB and trees is probably 125 feet. Near the pin, its probably only 50 feet.
4. The fairway is grass, so rolling is possible.
5. The pin will be low ceiling thanks to a limb overhanging the green about 50 feet short.
6. The road goes behind the pin.
7. My thought process in this design is yes, it's going to be hard, but as 750, its nothing more than very tough par 4 (and I think its appropriate to say that based on gold level). In order to create drama / thought, I'm putting an artifical creek across the fairway that in theory, makes the player think on their 2nd shot about laying up or going for the pin. Similar to how in ball golf a player typically chooses on their 2nd shot what to do, I think having a hole in that distance range with a forced OB Carry would be a great par 5 and a great scoring spread of risk reward to finish the event as each player finishes there.

So with all that background, here is my question John.

How wide should this be and what are the distances from the pin that it should start and end at. My thought was 100 feet running from 150 out to 50 out. Would you make it so if a player hits that limb protecting the green and falls down they are OB or safe?

TIA for your opinion.

 

[New013]

^^^Interesting, I hope John get's on here because I'd love to hear his opinion on that as well.

My thought is that the way you have described it, the farside of the creek would be very close to the branch. If you did want players that hit the branch to be safe you'd then have to figure in how much potential ricochet backwards towards the creek would be created on average. If the creek stops 10' short of the branch and 5/10 discs that hit the branch are safe & 5/10 bounce back farther than 10' and end up OB then I think you've got a problem. So that's one thing to consider if you want them safe.

How high off the ground is the branch? I'd say at anything higher than 30' it should definitely force you OB. You've got to think most pro players can get around 450' on the drive, 400' at least. That only leaves you with around 300'/350' to go and that's 250'/300' over the creek.

Personally if my drive is over 400' I'd go for it, which it should be. With the distance left I'd be going fairway driver which is easier to keep low and by the time it got there it would be on the way down so I wouldn't even really worry about a branch that's 30' or higher off the ground.

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks, MTL.

Need a couple days. Let me see what I can come up with. In the meantime, an aerial or even a hand sketch would be helpful.

Thanks,
John

 

[_MTL_]

Thanks John.

See attached.

The hole is on the same land as 16 and 17 in the attached image.

The basket is the same location as were you see the basket (circle) for 17's pin.

The darker green / rough you see on the left is a natural area - a do not mow. This OB is required per the park's rules. The road on the right and past is clear too - and you can see how the fairway shrinks.

Just to the left of 16's tee, you can see a faint small white line - this is a bridge. From the bridge to 17's pin is roughly 575 feet. Hole 17 of my layout will start past where the tee (dot) for 16 that you see and throw to the bottom right corner (from the viewer of the map perspective) of the field.

If you tee in the middle - near that dirt spot you can see - it's the 775 foot number to get to the pin as shown for 17's pin in the image.

The branch I was referring to is about 50 feet from the pin and while it looks like you are throwing into woods from the overhead, it's simply just a few big trees that create the low ceiling.

Thanks in advance!

 

[grodney]

So, you want to create the hole below, with a fake stream? And this will be a 3-shot hole in an A-Tier? And you want the green reachable in 2 with 2 fantastic shots and with some risk. Otherwise, the player would have to lay up short of the "stream" in 2? And the question is, how wide should you make the stream, and how close to the basket should it be?

 

[_MTL_]

So, you want to create the hole below, with a fake stream? And this will be a 3-shot hole in an A-Tier? And you want the green reachable in 2 with 2 fantastic shots and with some risk. Otherwise, the player would have to lay up short of the "stream" in 2? And the question is, how wide should you make the stream, and how close to the basket should it be?

Exactly.

 

[Cgkdisc]

My thought would be that the artificial river should cut diagonally across the fairway so there's more risk (longer throw) to clear it aiming to one side than the other. Considering the map, I would have the river angle from lower left to upper right.

 

[denny ritner]

My thought would be that the artificial river should cut diagonally across the fairway so there's more risk (longer throw) to clear it aiming to one side than the other. Considering the map, I would have the river angle from lower left to upper right.

^^^^this is huge. this is a concept that most designers fail to grasp.

 

[_MTL_]

My thought would be that the artificial river should cut diagonally across the fairway so there's more risk (longer throw) to clear it aiming to one side than the other. Considering the map, I would have the river angle from lower left to upper right.

Why LL to UR as opposed to UL to LR?

 

[Cgkdisc]

It looks like the approach to the pin bends to the right. So I'm thinking you want the riskier, longer throw landing area to be on the right side with the left side being the easier landing area to hit but potentially farther from the pin.

 

[_MTL_]

It looks like the approach to the pin bends to the right. So I'm thinking you want the riskier, longer throw landing area to be on the right side with the left side being the easier landing area to hit but potentially farther from the pin.

Gotcha.

I would say it is actually more straight than anything.

What would your recomendation be considering that?