Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[Cgkdisc]

or don't do that because it is a confusing mess...

I think it's the 9-hole Emerald course near Phoenix that has a reverse 9-hole layout used daily by players for over 10 years and it seems to work but maybe a local can comment. Probably not recommended to plan a 9-hole course that way to start with. But disc golfers come up with safari options all the time if it works. Sometimes a specific plan can better organize this behavior.

 

[goosefraba1]

So design the course as a complete loop around the lake that can be played in either direction. Odd days it's clockwise and even days it's counterclockwise. It's a little like Ft. Steilacoom where at one time (maybe not now?) they had baskets everywhere with different routing and hole numbering specified on the sign board for that day.

I actually am interested in this idea for multiple reasons.

1- we would probably only need to pour 4 or 5 extra pads.
2- provide both FH and BH lines over the water.
3- we would basically get 2 courses for the price of 1.
4- Just think of the tournament implications. Day 1 of a B tier, we could have clockwise lake course and hill course. Day 2, we could have counter-clockwise lake course and hill course.

:hfive:

 

[Cgkdisc]

Other than tournament days, I'm thinking you might not want to alternate routing every other day but perhaps every month flip the direction to avoid too much confusion.

 

[SonicGuy]

So design the course as a complete loop around the lake that can be played in either direction. Odd days it's clockwise and even days it's counterclockwise. It's a little like Ft. Steilacoom where at one time (maybe not now?) they had baskets everywhere with different routing and hole numbering specified on the sign board for that day.

This is one of the more terrible ideas I have heard on course design. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Cgkdisc]

This is one of the more terrible ideas I have heard on course design. Just my opinion of course.

It's all situational. There are several design ideas that don't make sense in general but might make sense in the right circumstances. For example, crossing fairways doesn't make sense in general. But on a person's private course it works if they want it to.

 

[goosefraba1]

It's all situational. There are several design ideas that don't make sense in general but might make sense in the right circumstances. For example, crossing fairways doesn't make sense in general. But on a person's private course it works if they want it to.

Heck.... one of the best courses in the world, Idlewild, does that. Not a great idea, but sometimes you just have to make exceptions.

Of course, we will make several different mockups first. This might not be the end result, but I am always open to options.

 

[johnrhouck]

As a San Antonio player, I would LOVE some more information about this!

Oxcart, we just started a new FB Group page for this course, and we've got almost 300 members in the first 3 hours. Amazing response. Progress on the course has been good, and we're hoping to open by the end of May. You can get updates from the HouckDesign FB page, and now from the Graytown Park on the San Antonio River page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1693844484198329/ Hope you can join us for the grand opening.

 

[johnrhouck]

102g scaled birdie.

Kuzi sends love

That's sweet, Gator. I'm hoping I have one or two stashed away in a box somewhere. One of these days I'll do dig. Love to Kuzi (and to you, of course).

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey John,

First off ... I want to thank you for all the time you've taken over the years to field questions on here. ...

I get more thrill from the design process than playing anymore. While I've helped with a private course design, and have come up with alternative designs (to existing baskets) on a couple 9 holers in the area, I've not had the opportunity to help in the initial install for a public course. That may be changing soon, but I'm running into some obstacles which are more interpersonal than political/topographical/etc. ...

We have an older guy that's been a primary designer for most courses installed in the area in the last decade. While he's done a great job, his courses all have a signature "style" (as one would expect) and many of us in the area would like to see a course with a bit of a different "feel" to it--a bit more on the longer, mid 60's par golf side. The issue is, when a new course is in the works, he's the first person getting involved in the process. I totally get it; nobody will argue he's "the guy" in our neighborhood for design and a wealth of knowledge....
We met up and showed each other our design ideas, then walking the property, most of the discussion was about his hole ideas and basically dismissed my concept for the course.

Joe, thanks for the kind words. I do appreciate them.

I think you're right to characterize your situation as more interpersonal than anything else. Obviously that can be as tricky in course design as it can in any other area of life where humans are involved. The first step if for everyone to be respectful and to listen to each other's ideas. If you can't do that much, there may not be much hope. Design by committee can get messy, and I've always avoided it, so I can't give you any tips about how I've done it.

If you do ever have real problems -- with this person or anyone else, I do have a friend who is now a leading authority on how to deal with any kind of conflict. He has a great book, and now he has an online training at https://www.conflictguru.com/

I don't have a stake in what he does, and he doesn't even know that I'm recommending him. I just know that I've learned a TON from him about how to deal with tricky interpersonal situations, and he's helped individuals as well as major corporations with improving communication, especially when people are having conflict. So there's that.

Now back to disc golf specifically:

I say all this to ask: Do you have any thoughts on how to "break-in" to design? ...
I understand that his concepts may be better than my own, but I don't know how to get him to entertain new ways of looking at holes. Many of his courses have this very signature feel to them, and there's a growing consensus that we could use new perspectives. I'm in a position to influence, but want to do it in a strategic way.

Thanks in advance!

The traditional answers to your question about how to break in to design was just, "Find designers who can mentor you" and " Go find a city that needs a course, and design it, getting as much feedback as possible from experienced people." The first answer you've already heard from Goose (and very well said, by the way, Goose), and the second answer involves recommending that someone who has never designed a course goes out there and just does it. Those days have passed.

Because of how the sport has evolved, and how the art of design has evolved, Dee and I have started a series of workshops on course design and how to succeed in the business of design. After the first two, the response from those who attended has been deond anything we hoped for, so we are moving ahead. The next event will be at Selah Ranch and Trey Texas Ranch June 10-12 and will offer the ABCD workshop (Art and Business of Course Design) as well as a second, more in-depth workshop called DGEF (Disc Golf Educational Foundations). So anyone who hasn't taken the first one will be able to catch up and do both in one weekend.

I don't want this to sound like a commercial, so I won't say anything other than this: we are sincerely trying to fill an educational void for people like you who have that real enthusiasm for design. If you want reviews, you can talk to people who have taken ABCD to get their opinion.

We'll have more details up soon, but the overview on the June event is that ABCD will run Friday from about 8:30-5:00 and Saturday 9:00-12:00, followed by DGEF Saturday afternoon and Sunday until 2:00.

Hope all that helps a little, and I hope everything works out on your new courses. Thanks.

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey John,

I have a question about designing an entire course around a lake. The pic below features the Blackbear course (we've discussed this one a few times)... this course is in orange. The other course is a future course mockup that I will propose to parks. This mockup only features holes on the East side of the lake. I made basically a figure 8 in order to incorporate fh and bh carries over the water or near the water.

My question is, if we were to try to design the course entirely around the lake, basically one giant 2 mile loop... How would you design the course in order to allow for both fh and bh risk shots?

The only way that I can think to do this is some type of switchback/howdie-do point... but that would be more difficult with the length of the walk around the lake already.

This all of course is farther down the line, however.... there is no time like the present to secure land for the future. We are on very good terms with Parks right now. We are just low on funding. The state park and the state forest split the lake. So, that might make it a little harder to secure all of that lake front. Just trying to gain some knowledge before I present the idea. At the very least, I think that I will gain permission to use this as a temporary course.

The first thing, Goose, is that I applaud you for employing the under-used figure 8 technique. In situations like yours, it can be a lifesaver. I'm sometimes bewildered why people don't use it on some courses, let alone the more sophisticated versions of it. I won't comment on the quality of what you laid out specifically, since I don't know the property.

As for going all the way around the lake, you could use some occasional small figure 8's and howdy-do's (where trails between holes intersect and two groups can say "Howdy" to each other), but that can get awkward quickly, and if the lake is too big, it's not a good option. It looks like your lake may be too big, unless all the holes you drew are around 300'.

So that raises some questions, including "Do you even want every hole to be on or near the water?" It could be overkill, and a figure 8 might actually yield a better, more varied course. (It would also leave you room on the west side to do a figure 8 for Course #3).

As for the potential of going completely around the lake and occasionally reversing direction, you say:

I actually am interested in this idea for multiple reasons.

1- we would probably only need to pour 4 or 5 extra pads.
2- provide both FH and BH lines over the water.
3- we would basically get 2 courses for the price of 1.
4- Just think of the tournament implications. Day 1 of a B tier, we could have clockwise lake course and hill course. Day 2, we could have counter-clockwise lake course and hill course.

The biggest issue I have with this idea is that you are guaranteed to always have a course that's grossly imbalanced with respect to where the OB is. In any given round, RALF (righties and lefty forehanders) or LARS (lefties and righty sidearmers) will have a distinct advantage. No matter how wonderful the course may be otherwise, it will be imbalanced in one very important way. Without knowing anything else about the property, I would say that I would need a very compelling reason to go all the way around like that. In other words, going around the lake would have to give me major advantages over an out-and-back routing.

I think you're right it it could be cool for a two-round event (providing weather conditions were similar for the two rounds), but every individual round would have a balance issue.

Hope you get the approval and funding to make it happen.

 

[grodney]

Oh John, you are cracking me up with Ralf and Lars. That reminds me....I haven't played PITTSBORO yet, though I look forward to the lack of NAGS there.

 

[johnrhouck]

Oh John, you are cracking me up with Ralf and Lars. That reminds me....I haven't played PITTSBORO yet, though I look forward to the lack of NAGS there.

Always good to hear from you. Swear to God I thought of you yesterday when we passed a car with the license plate G-LOVE. Just no safe way to take a pic.

Yes, I always bring Ralf and Lars to the course to help me test any questionable holes. Hope you enjoy Pittsboro, and let me know what you think of all the LASSO's on that course. (Landing Areas Supporting Several Options). Thanks.

 

[goosefraba1]

Thanks John, I appreciate the advice. That makes me want to opt for the figure 8/howdy do points and go for the west side of the lake because it offers a little bit more land elevation variance. After looking at the land on the east side of the lake, there just isnt enough room for any type of figure 8 without making it dangerous.

I will keep thinking about it and occasionally walk the land as we keep moving along on the Blackbear course. Maintenance has been working on cutting the fairways out for me... and i just heard that we have some volunteers. I am scrapping 2 holes, and switching them out with two better holes. So, hopefully we will be quite a bit closer to a finished project by the end of the year.

The course is already getting quite a bit of play with just the 9 baskets in. Have already met some "locals". It has been quite entertaining to see and meet people out at the course.

 

[grodney]

John, can you put a number to the tees at Selah?

As in, "the Blue tees were designed for players whose average drive is X feet". Or, would you rather give a range: "the Blue tees were designed for players whose average drive would be somewhere between Y and Z feet".

Or instead of average drive, do you think of it more in terms of max drive? And if so, is it a specific max drive or a range of max drives?

If you *can* put numbers on them, please give us both Blue and Red.

I'm wondering if your answer is as easy as "Blue is for people who throw 375, Red for 275" (for example), or if it's much more complicated than that?

Thanks!

 

[Philthykins]

Severin Lang

What's you home course? We don't have any courses in Indiana.

Dude Severin Lang in southern Indiana is an amazing course!! Check it out dude, one of my favorites.

 

[johnrhouck]

John, can you put a number to the tees at Selah?

As in, "the Blue tees were designed for players whose average drive is X feet". Or, would you rather give a range: "the Blue tees were designed for players whose average drive would be somewhere between Y and Z feet".

Or instead of average drive, do you think of it more in terms of max drive? And if so, is it a specific max drive or a range of max drives?

If you *can* put numbers on them, please give us both Blue and Red.

I'm wondering if your answer is as easy as "Blue is for people who throw 375, Red for 275" (for example), or if it's much more complicated than that?

Thanks!

Rodney,

That's a great question. I can do some research and maybe use some individual holes as examples when I get home.

The simple answer is that the Blue tees are meant to be a good challenge (and fun) for 950-rated players.

As for Red, the quick answer is that the par threes are generally around 200' and the par fours are around 400', so once you can throw more than 200' accurately, the par fours should start to be dumb. (There's obviously a longer discussion there, but that's the bottom line.)

Had a great Grand Opening of the Hobbs Farm course in Carrollton, GA this weekend. Also did some final-stage work on Strawn Park in Columbia, Missouri, designed a little 9-holer in Iowa, and scoped out some locations for future courses. Been all over the last 2 1/2 weeks -- looking forward to getting back to Austin soon.
Thanks.

 

[Avus]

... Also did some final-stage work on Strawn Park in Columbia, Missouri,...

Do you know if there will be signage by the Mid America Open in June(24-26)?

 

[johnrhouck]

Absolutely. The signs are already printed and ready to be installed.

They look really good, too.

 

[johnrhouck]

John, can you put a number to the tees at Selah?

As in, "the Blue tees were designed for players whose average drive is X feet". Or, would you rather give a range: "the Blue tees were designed for players whose average drive would be somewhere between Y and Z feet".

Or instead of average drive, do you think of it more in terms of max drive? And if so, is it a specific max drive or a range of max drives?

If you *can* put numbers on them, please give us both Blue and Red.

I'm wondering if your answer is as easy as "Blue is for people who throw 375, Red for 275" (for example), or if it's much more complicated than that?

Thanks!

Rodney, as I said, the best number I can put on the Blue tees is 950. Players with ratings in the 920-980 range should find the Blue tees to be a good fair test for them.

In terms of distances, if you can throw an ACCURATE 350' drive on the par fours, you'll leave yourself with under 300' to the pin, and most times it'll be closer to 250'. Anyone who can throw an ACCURATE 350' drive should be able to birdie every hole. There are a few holes where you need to throw a shorter placement drive, such as #9 and #14(!) on Lakeside, and #3 on Creekside.

Another way to look at it is that the landing areas generally accommodate good drives between 300' and 400'-425', and those good drives are rewarded with approach shots between 300' and 200'. 1000-rated players who can throw 450' or more consistently will find on most holes that the hole is less challenging and even NAGS-y, or that they'll have to club down to hit the landing area. Those players should be able to get eagle looks at all the par fives.

As for the Red tees, anyone who can throw 200' accurately should be able to birdie every hole. Anyone who throws 300' or more should again find most holes are less challenging, or that he or she will have to club down to hit the landing area.

Is that the kind of answer you were looking for?

 

[grodney]

Is that the kind of answer you were looking for?

Yeah, that's good stuff....thanks!